Information & Ethics Committee on April 12th, 2021

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Again, my role in this is to make sure the laws are adequate. Whether Canadian laws are being followed and whether Canadian laws apply are going to be part of the investigative and prosecutorial functions.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

If for over nine years they've failed to comply and we have clear evidence of child sexual exploitation happening on their website and no reporting, do you think that is following the law?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Look, these are horrific crimes. We know that. We have confidence in our police services. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, most of it falls at the provincial level, but to the extent the RCMP is involved we have confidence in the RCMP, confidence in the systems that we have put in place to report these crimes and confidence in not only the investigative independence of the RCMP but also the prosecutorial independence of the prosecution services, not just at the federal level but at the provincial and territorial levels across Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Viersen.

We're going to turn to Ms. Lattanzio now.

Ms. Lattanzio, you have five minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, everyone, for being present this morning, both the ministers and Ms. Lucki. Thank you for partaking and helping this committee move along and undertake this very important study.

My first question will be for Mr. Blair.

Mr. Blair, just last month, Public Safety Canada launched a national awareness campaign targeting children, parents and caregivers in order to raise awareness of online child sexual exploitation and abuse and, more specifically, raising awareness of this heinous crime, how to report it and how to reduce the stigma associated with the reporting. Why are the awareness and stigma reduction practices so important?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Lattanzio.

It's a very important question. We understand that public education for children and their parents and an awareness of the issue of child sexual exploitation on the Internet is absolutely critical in giving families and young people the tools they need. We are also working hard to remove the stigma, because we know that many people have been deeply traumatized by this most heinous of crimes and we want to empower people to be able to come forward and take actions to protect themselves.

At the same time, we also recognize the importance of strong support for criminal investigations. I want to acknowledge that the RCMP runs the National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, but we work very closely with the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, which undertakes, on our behalf and with our funding, support for victim identification and victim support strategies to provide assistance to survivors and tailored resources for victims and their families.

We know that this victimization in this most terrible way by this online sexual exploitation of children can have lifelong consequences. It's critically important that we raise public awareness of the issue so that.... We know that during the pandemic a lot of kids are spending a lot more time online, and we want to make sure they can do it safely. That can be done through public education and working with their families. At the same time, we also recognize that predators are out there, and we need to make sure that we have the tools and the resources necessary to apprehend, deter and prosecute those individuals.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Lametti, I would like to give you the opportunity to tell the committee more specifically what the mandatory reporting act is. I know that my colleague asked you various questions about it, but perhaps you can provide this committee with the broad outlines of what exactly this act is and how it can help combat child pornography in Canada.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lattanzio, for that opportune question, given that the MRA does play an important role in all of this.

The MRA is a federal criminal statute that places obligations on those who provide Internet service to the public, for example, access providers, content providers and hosts. It requires them to report to the C3P, the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, which runs the anonymous tip line, Cybertip.ca, if they're advised of an Internet address where there is child pornography that may be available to the public, or they're required to report to law enforcement if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the Internet service is being used to commit a child pornography offence. That is critically important. It also requires them to maintain the fleeting data for a period of 21 days [Technical difficulty—Editor] law enforcement a chance to access that.

Those are important measures in trying to combat a phenomenon that is happening quickly online. It tries to give law enforcement authorities, through the mandatory reporting obligation, some ability to act quickly. It's a critical part of the criminal structure in fighting this kind of crime, which we all believe is heinous and needs to be eradicated.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

I will go back to Minister Blair.

Minister, I'm hoping that you can speak a bit more today about human trafficking. I believe that our government's national strategy focuses on empowerment as a pillar in itself, and that you actually have an advisory committee and a chief adviser.

Can you please elaborate for us today on the importance of having a representative working with the government who is dedicated to fighting the scourge?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Minister, the member's time is up, but we'll give you an opportunity for a short answer.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'll do my best to give a short answer, Mr. Chair.

A special adviser to combat human trafficking has been named. The purpose is to provide expert advice to the government on our collective efforts to combat human trafficking and to raise awareness about this terrible crime. It builds on some previous investments. It's part of a national strategy to combat human trafficking that the government launched in 2019.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We're going to turn to Madame Gaudreau for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'll come back to what I was saying earlier. In the next year, there will be a change. In fact, it's imminent. I was saying that all bills die on the Order Paper. I hear from all my colleagues that urgent action is needed. Unfortunately, the legislative process being what it is, it's obvious that we can't eradicate this scourge, which claims new victims at breakneck speed, every second of every day.

Given the fragility of bills, which can take years to pass, don't you think that, in such a virulent context—that's a word we can use these days—we should increase the accountability of individuals, agencies and commissioners who have more power to help address this scourge?

It's all well and good to increase investments and develop organizations, but resources already exist. Right now, we're talking about victims, and it's far from partisan or a bill. As legislators, we are caught up in this pace that isn't fast enough for victims.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about this.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Gaudreau.

With respect to investments, we do what we can because the government has the authority to do so.

As far as bills are concerned, we're always willing to improve the current normative framework, whether it is in criminal law or in other areas. I don't have any bills to propose because, as I just said, the Criminal Code and the other laws are robust. That said, we're always open to suggestions for improvement.

I know that members have bills, but it takes the co-operation of members in the House of Commons. I know your leader has shown such co-operation in the context of the medical assistance in dying bill. Sometimes you have to co-operate, especially when there are sometimes delay tactics by other parties.

We're always willing to co-operate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll go to Mr. Angus now, for two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lametti, for coming today.

I'm going to move beyond our attempts to get answers on the mandatory reporting laws that we have in place.

The story of Serena Fleites blew up, and I think it shocked us all. She was a child porn survivor who came forward to The New York Times. She begged Pornhub/MindGeek to take her videos down, and she said there were multiple tags. When we asked Pornhub/MindGeek about this, they said they don't have any records of her. A number of other child survivors have come forward as well.

We have had zero investigations and zero reporting of any of these allegations that have come forward against MindGeek. I know some are not sure whether it's a Canadian company, but it is in Montreal.

Under subsection 163.1(3) of the Criminal Code, any person who “transmits”, “makes available” or “advertises” child pornography is guilty of an indictable offence, with imprisonment of up to 14 years.

I'm thinking here of the tags, the promotions and the selling—the online stuff. Do we not already have laws in Canada that are sufficient? We just don't seem to have the political will to actually apply the law. Why would we need to change anything when the law is pretty clear about transmitting, distributing and advertising child rape?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Angus, allow me to—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm sorry, but I asked the question of Mr. Lametti. Is he still with us?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Okay.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I'm happy to jump in.

I'm glad, Mr. Angus, that you have understood that Canadian criminal law and the mandatory reporting act provide one of the strongest and most exhaustive frameworks in the world for these kinds of heinous crimes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Exactly, so why have you never had any reporting in Canada? If it's so robust, Mr. Lametti, how come—

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

As I have pointed out—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—there's been zero reporting?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I know you were listening to the opening remarks very carefully, and as I said, the principle of domestic territoriality applies—that is, the Criminal Code applies in Canada.

In the Internet context, there are a variety of different standards that might mean that a company is actually operating in another country. We work with other countries to exchange information.