Evidence of meeting #35 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was year.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I can be as careless as any other parliamentarian, however, in keeping track of my meetings with lobbyists. We are invited, or encouraged, to do it, but given that we considering reforms to the Act in the future, we should think about an ethical way to do it, which would avoid any conflict of interest situation. I feel like there's some latitude, and it's easy to miss things that may be important.
Based on your expertise, what recommendations could you make for us about this?
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The Office of the Commissioner is there to regulate lobbyists and the communications they have with you. Should there be a requirement in the Lobbying Act that you take notes and give them to me when I contact you? If you haven't taken notes, what can we do? Do I have the right to investigate that? Where does this obligation come from? You have to think about the consequences of putting this kind of obligation in the Act.
Should you be required to inform me when you meet with someone if you know they are not registered in the Registry of Lobbyists and maybe they should be? That's a question that comes up, and I haven't put it in my recommendations yet. I'm thinking about it and would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
All my life, I have been transparent, and my first big observation is that there are grey areas in this confederation. I have found that it's easy to slip through.
As I tell my kids, we need rules to tell us what to do and what not to do, because otherwise anything not specifically forbidden is considered to be permitted.
So we need to impose rules here too, in an effort to maintain voter confidence in a Parliament intended to be honest and neutral.
I look forward to your 11 recommendations, I will pay close attention to them, and I hope there will be a twelfth that will talk about reform to make sure that if we haven't done it, we will have to look at how to legislate it. At the end of the day, this is taxpayers' money, so we need to be worthy of their trust.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If I may, I'd like to add that many public office holders have already contacted me with concerns about these meetings with lobbyists. While there is no obligation, I will tell you that people have integrity and are committed to transparency. They let me know when they believe something has happened.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
That makes me feel better, and I'm very happy to hear you say that.
Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?
Conservative
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Thank you.
Conservative
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Commissioner, for coming. It's a pleasure to have you back. I share your sense of urgency. We really need to get the government to direct our committee to look at the Lobbying Act.
Normally the questions I bother you with are questions of loopholes and gaps in the act, because we need clarification. For example, when Mr. Kielburger spoke to our committee, he said that it was legally impossible for him to register to lobby. We asked questions about the multiple meetings the Kielburger group had with government regarding the millions of dollars in contracts, and he said that as a co-founder volunteer, it was legally impossible; he couldn't register.
You sent me a letter on March 19 of this year confirming that there's nothing in the act to preclude someone like Mr. Kielburger, as an individual, from registering, and that he could do so for the purposes of transparency. Would that be a correct interpretation of the act?
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Right now the act requires them to register. It's a requirement for someone who's paid either as a consultant or as an in-house lobbyist. However, if someone chooses to put their name forward transparently to say that they've lobbied, whether they're paid or not, there's nothing in the registry that would stop someone from being able to do that if they wished to do so.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Okay, so there was nothing to legally stop him. It was certainly possible.
The question of payment is interesting, because one of the arguments the Kielburger brothers used was that they were just volunteers and they didn't get paid, so they were like any other volunteer who knocks on an MP's door.
We just read the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner's report, and he states, “any decision made by Mr. Morneau that could further the private interests of WE would be made improperly since it would also further the interests of its co-founder, Mr. Kielburger.” He goes on to state, “WE was the lone administrator of the CSSG and would have acquired a significant financial interest for its role. ... [The Kielburgers'] involvement in WE's day-to-day operations is so prevalent that the organization's interests are also those of its co-founders.”
Would you say, from that interpretation of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner's findings, that they would have been in a better position to register to lobby because of their direct financial interest?
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think it would be inappropriate for me to try to interpret that statement and then try to transfer it to the Lobbying Act. The Lobbying Act says that anyone who is paid as a consultant or is an employee must register. That's what the act says.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Okay. Then someone who had a direct financial interest may not need to register.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I would have to review those particular circumstances to decide if there was a payment.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
One of the other things they told our committee was that they met government so rarely that there was no need to actually register to lobby, even though they had a director of government relations and they were hiring a manager of government relations.
Yesterday, according to the commissioner's report,Craig Kielburger's team was so familiar in the finance minister's office that they opened their conversation with staff with the term “Hey, girl”. That suggests someone who really was comfortable on the insides of power.
Wouldn't it be better if these kinds of insider access were registered to lobby, because we would have no idea about these meetings if they aren't registered?
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
To answer your question, and I really want to stay away from talking about any specifics of the file—
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
—because it would be inappropriate for me to do so, one of my recommendations is exactly that, about the significant part of duties. To me, if you have one conversation and that conversation is a registerable activity, it's lobbying. You should have to register, period.
The calculation of how many times someone talked to somebody and how long they talked, and whether that meant that it was a significant part of their duties, is an exercise that organizations and corporations have to do. It's an exercise that I then have to do to figure that out. It's just unnecessary. The burden of registering is not that high. It's not that difficult to register.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
It's not that difficult.
I was interested, because you were saying that most lobbyists thank you. It's a pretty straightforward thing. For me, it's about a level playing field and making sure that everyone has the same level of access, and not unfair access.
I know you don't want to talk about individual cases, but in November and December 2017, the finance minister held his budget consultations in the offices of WE, and they were promoted by WE. Mr. Morneau called on the parliamentary secretary to attend the meeting, and she asked why she needed to be there. This is all according to the findings. They said that “he”, Craig, “has been [very] good to us,”—that's the finance minister's office—“so [we] want to keep him happy”.
I found that to be extraordinary. It seems to me that the finance minister's office was setting up meetings to keep Craig Kielburger happy, yet none of this was registered.
Wouldn't that put other groups that are trying to lobby fairly, and filling out all the forms, at an extreme disadvantage?
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Well, anyone who lobbies, in my view, should be registered. Once they are registered, they are subject to a code of conduct. The code of conduct specifically says that lobbyists should not be putting individuals with whom they have a relationship into a position that creates a sense of obligation.
These are rules that apply to lobbyists. When they are registered, they should be abiding by the code of conduct.
I have to say that I don't get that many complaints with respect to the code of conduct with respect to lobbying.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
But if you ignored the rules and then were able to develop a relationship such that you could call ministers' staff “Hey, girl”, and have meetings and say “We want to keep Craig happy”, you're operating completely under the radar, and nobody outside the minister's office or that organization would know.
I guess that's my concern. How do we make sure that we have transparency and accountability across the board for everyone who plays in the public realm?
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
My answer to that would be that we change the act. We need to amend the Lobbying Act.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Angus.
We're going to turn to Monsieur Gourde for the next five minutes.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Madam Commissioner, thank you for being with us today.
My question is about the record number of registrations in the Registry of Lobbyists this year. The pandemic has made it more difficult for lobbyists to meet with us, to meet with public officials, leaders, and public office holders.
What, then, might explain the record number of registrations?