Evidence of meeting #35 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was year.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you so much.
We're going to turn to Mr. Angus now for the next two and a half minutes.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madame Bélanger.
Madame Bélanger, you said you have turned over three investigations to the RCMP. Is that the case?
2:45 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I did, in that last fiscal year, and I actually just submitted one in the last month, so I've added another one. As of March 31, I had sent three to the RCMP, which makes 10 since my arrival.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
In terms of the differences between the Conflict of Interest Act and the Lobbying Act, my concern is that the Ethics Commissioner found David MacNaughton of Palantir guilty of breaking the Conflict of Interest Act for multiple acts of lobbying. You found him not guilty. The Ethics Commissioner has revealed levels of lobbying from the Kielburgers that I think surpass anything we've ever known, but we haven't seen anything from the Commissioner of Lobbying.
Are you investigating, or do you just think we need to change the laws so that they actually have to comply with the law?
2:45 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I can't confirm whether or not I'm investigating or where I am in my stage of reviewing that particular file. I don't believe that Commissioner Dion found that Mr. MacNaughton had been lobbying, because that's not in his power to decide. He said he had had communications with public officials—
2:45 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Exactly.
The Lobbying Act says.... I didn't say that Mr. MacNaughton did not lobby. He did, but he's entitled to, up to a significant part of his work. What am I supposed to do? That's how the act has been—
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
No, I'm not arguing with your decision. I'm just wondering.
I have a question, then. Mr. Dion's interest with the Kielburgers and with their friendship.... We have that they were going to lunch. They were having family brunches together, but Craig Kielburger said he wasn't going to hang out at the Morneaus' house as a friend; he was going in a “professional capacity”.
If that was someone who actually registered and followed the law, would we be able to see that on the lobbying register? We weren't aware of any of these kinds of meetings, engagements and outings that they had together.
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
When the Lobbying Act applies, the status of the relationship is irrelevant. If someone communicates and lobbies, they are supposed to register. The idea of the relationship—
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I was going to say that the idea is that once you're registered, you're subject to the code of conduct. The code of conduct actually says that you shouldn't be lobbying anyone with whom you have a relationship that could create a sense of obligation. The code would kick into force in relation to any personal relationships that come into play. It would have to look into them.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Angus.
We're going to turn to Mr. Kelly now for the next round of questions.
May 14th, 2021 / 2:50 p.m.
Pat Kelly Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for having me here at the ethics committee.
Commissioner, I want to make sure I get this. You referred 10 investigations to the RCMP since you began, and you said three since.... Sorry; say that again.
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm actually at 11. I did one in the first year, six in my second year, three in the last year, and I just did one recently.
2:50 p.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Okay. Could you tell us how many investigations you have under way right now?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There are four.
2:50 p.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Okay. You have four investigations currently under way.
We're here to discuss the estimates. Do you have the resources to conduct...? In a smaller office, the ability to manage investigations may be trickier. Do you have the resources to manage your current caseload? Do you have room if you suddenly had additional work?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
In the last year we doubled the preliminary assessments. This assessment is that first stage of whether or not we go into an investigation. The workload is heavy, and I only have a team, with the director, of three investigators and two supports for the investigation team. One of them takes care of all the exemptions. It's a small team.
I am looking at the workload right now and seeing if I can move resources around to make sure that we can continue to be efficient. We are planning, in the next year, to map out our processes to see if there are some efficiencies to be gained.
Of course, an investigation is an investigation. We need to get the documentation. We need to do interviews. We need to analyze.
I have a great team of investigators and the staff in that compliance directorate, plus I have two wonderful lawyers who support them. Of course, I'm very much involved.
Could we have more staff? Obviously, but I'm limited in the budget that I have, and we move things around as much as we can.
2:50 p.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Officers of Parliament are extremely important to parliamentarians. We've seen the Auditor General, for example, have to actually turn away work and not investigate areas that they deemed important. Have you got to that point? Have you been able to conduct all the investigations that are necessary and before you?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm going to answer yes to that. I have not turned anything away. I don't think I ever would. I would find.... Some things would have to give, but we look into everything that comes in.
2:50 p.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Okay. Thank you.
In this past year you combined the functions of different programs that were focused on the registry, including education and outreach, compliance and enforcement, into a newly unified registry service. How has this affected your operations?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It hasn't really affected my operations. What happened in the past is that our key results didn't really reflect the way that we did things, so we just amalgamated.
We have one program, and the program is to support and do the mandate that's required under the Lobbying Act. Then we have a few people who support that in corporate services. It hasn't really affected the way we run our business.
2:50 p.m.
Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC
Okay.
How many full-time equivalents are dedicated to the registry service and compliance program?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
In the registry client services, there are four. In the compliance, the registration team, there are six, so that's 10.