Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 6th, 2024

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much.

I appreciate the witnesses.

I will just give some unsolicited advice. Let's be proactive on PIAs. The commissioner came before the committee and said that he wants to work with you and that he will be as responsive as he possibly can, so let's make sure—instead of our finding out from the media and going through this rigamarole—that departments, agencies and the like are proactive. I think that will save you all a lot of these tough questions.

We had different witnesses in the first hour of this meeting who talked a lot about the potential use of this technology when it comes to employees. I know there are ECCC, NRCan and a whole host of others. You're talking about this in terms of law enforcement and its application, but I just want to, if I may, find out where you are in terms of the people who work for your departments—those within law enforcement administration. I do not mean the program specifically, because you have answered on that very clearly, but I'd like to hear from you about whether there are tools, techniques and methods through which you would observe employees and other individuals who work for you in terms of the data that could be on their devices.

Let's start with the RCMP. I'm hoping for very brief responses, because I have some other questions.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you for the question.

In short, no, we do not use any technology to monitor and/or manage or supervise our employees. We do have a user agreement for all of the devices we deploy. We do have a policy that governs the use of those devices.

Naturally, within our organization sometimes members are subject to allegations regarding code of conduct and/or criminal obligations, and we may need to launch an internal investigation, part of which may be to look at using digital forensic tools. As I alluded to, we've used them on one occasion with consent.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I apologize, but I'm really short on time.

Mr. McCrorie, go ahead.

[Aaron McCrorie]

Again, professional standards investigations take place outside of my particular organization, so it's hard for me to comment on their techniques and what they do.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I would ask you to bring that up to whoever within the CBSA is responsible for that and to ask them to provide that answer in writing to this committee. That would be very helpful.

Ms. Gratton, go ahead.

[France Gratton]

I would say the same thing. We don't use any tools to observe or monitor our staff. That's like the same situation—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Again I would ask that you bring that up the chain and make sure to get those answers to the committee.

Mr. McCrorie, I am curious, because there has been talk about investigations. Over the course of COVID there were conversations around ArriveCAN and a whole host of instances surrounding that and about people who crossed the border during the pandemic when there were restrictions. Were these sorts of investigations ever initiated because of COVID-related enforcement?

[Aaron McCrorie]

What we're doing is enforcing criminal elements of border-related legislation, for example, with respect to individuals who have been counselling others on how to fraudulently obtain immigration documents, a student visa or a work visa, or individuals who have been involved in the smuggling of firearms or parts. There was a case that went to court last year, in April 2023, and the individual got roughly 12 years for manufacturing ghost guns and for smuggling the parts in. Those were the instances in which we used those tools to get the evidence, as did our colleagues in the RCMP, to successfully prosecute those who had broken the criminal laws.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It's very clearly limited to breaches of the Criminal Code, so for somebody who—

[Aaron McCrorie]

It was border-related legislation, so they were booked, for example, under our own Customs Act.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Okay. You're telling me—and feel free to clarify—that when it came to any COVID-related enforcement, this technology would not have been used.

[Aaron McCrorie]

I'm not aware of any instance and I can't think of an instance in which we would use it in the context of COVID. Again, the only instances in which we would use it would be with prior judicial authorization.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that.

Ms. Gratton, I have just a few seconds left here. There are, for example, safe injection sites in our prisons, but it's kind of “don't ask, don't tell” when an inmate goes to a safe injection site to use contraband. Quite often they have had to get that from somewhere. I'm just trying to square this circle here about enforcement and whatnot when it comes to the dynamics in a prison, where there's alleged criminal activity but it's “look the other way” when it comes to certain aspects of that.

Could you comment briefly on how I square that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Boy, does it ever have to be brief.

Ms. Gratton, I’m sorry, but you will have to answer quickly.

[France Gratton]

Just quickly on overdose prevention sites, it's not a question of not looking at it. It's a harm reduction program, and it's really to enforce support and help inmates who are struggling with substance use. The distinction is that, when we are dealing with trafficking, then we go with the enforcement. That's where we get into taking measures and discipline to prevent the trafficking and the contraband. It's two different approaches.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Gratton.

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Mr. Housefather, you're next. You can have unlimited time—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

—since you're a new guest to the committee.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That was very flattering.

In order to save time, I just want to clean up on some issues. I'm going to ask my questions of the RCMP, and I'm going to ask the other departments to affirm if the answers the RCMP give me are the same as they would also have.

The first thing is the confusion among spyware, malware and data extraction technology. Spyware and malware are bad things that people put on your phone to continuously extract data and use it for nefarious purposes.

For the RCMP, can we assume that we don't use spyware or malware whatsoever and that we simply use data extraction tools?

[Nicolas Gagné]

No, not at all.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Is it the same?

[Aaron McCrorie]

Same thing for us.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

It's the same also. That would mean that, when you extract data, you've taken the device, you've extracted the data and you do not leave anything on the phone or the tool that you extracted the data from. Is that correct? You would give it back without leaving any type of software on it to continue to extract.

[Nicolas Gagné]

That's correct.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Is it the same?