Evidence of meeting #101 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was use.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Natural Resources
From our perspective, I have no problem doing this because we are proactively looking at what we can do in that space. I feel comfortable doing so given that we have the—
11:50 a.m.
NDP
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green and Mr. Brisson.
We have time for four and four. We are going to go to Mr. Barrett. That will take us to near the top, and then we will switch over to our next panel.
Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.
February 6th, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Let's clarify here. There was the article that was referenced by my colleague before from the CBC. The story was from November 29, 2023. The article was “Tools capable of extracting personal data from phones being used by 13 federal departments, documents show”. Those departments listed include your departments.
General and Ms. Martel, does your department have that capability—yes or no?
11:50 a.m.
Acting Chief Information Officer, Department of National Defence
Yes. We have the—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay. You have the capability.
You said that you don't monitor individuals. You only monitor networks.
11:50 a.m.
Acting Chief Information Officer, Department of National Defence
That's correct.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
The tools capable of extracting personal data from phones, how is that monitoring a network and not monitoring an individual?
11:50 a.m.
Acting Chief Information Officer, Department of National Defence
I'm going to let Dave answer that one.
11:50 a.m.
BGen Dave Yarker
If you take a look at a typical cyber-defence incident, which is really what we're talking about here, the kinds of tools we're talking about are the tools that you would need to figure out how and why a device like a cellphone had been compromised.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
BGen Dave Yarker
I think our point is that the angle we come at it from is the compromise of the device and the network.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Right. In your investigation, one of your investigative tools is to access an individual's phone. You would use this software as a tool, and part of your process would be to access an individual's phone.
Give a quick yes or no. I have limited time.
11:50 a.m.
BGen Dave Yarker
Only National Defence devices are used, but obviously, those devices are used by individuals.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay. I don't think that was clear in your initial responses.
Do members have a right to privacy?
11:50 a.m.
Acting Chief Information Officer, Department of National Defence
Absolutely. Yes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Have you used this capability on members' phones?
11:50 a.m.
BGen Dave Yarker
Their personal phones...? No.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
On phones assigned to members...?
11:50 a.m.
BGen Dave Yarker
Yes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Are members allowed to log into personal cloud-based accounts on issued phones?
11:50 a.m.
Acting Chief Information Officer, Department of National Defence
They are not supposed to, but some do.
11:50 a.m.
BGen Dave Yarker
Yes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Is it a violation of their terms of employment to do that?
11:50 a.m.
Acting Chief Information Officer, Department of National Defence
The government—
