Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 6th, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Chair, I have a point of order.

We had two Liberal members interrupt Mr. Brock because of his line of questioning. Then Ms. Damoff continued on the exact same line of questioning.

This isn't a question, Chair, about the Standing Orders or relevance. It's about looking to disrupt a member who rightfully has the floor, who is within his time and who is asking questions and giving an opportunity to respond.

We've seen this before. If we want the meetings to descend into pure chaos, that invitation can be accepted, but now that we've seen that there are games being played, I think that the disruptions from Liberal members need to end.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Again, we've been on this committee together long enough, all of us, to know that I generally give a lot of latitude to members to utilize their time in the manner in which they choose. We have subject matter experts in front of us. Yes, we are dealing with a subject. My expectation is that we are going to get back to where we need to go with that subject.

I don't like, frankly, these constant interruptions and points of order just because we don't like what somebody's saying or what a line of questioning is. That goes for all sides.

Ms. Damoff, you have five minutes and 22 seconds left. Please continue with your line of questioning.

You have the floor. Go ahead, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I need just very quick answers from all three of you. Maybe we'll start with the RCMP and work this way.

Is this software used on your employees' phones?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

We do not use the software on employees' phones. We do have the ability to use it because our phones are deployed operationally. Each member signs a consent around user use, etc. However, we don't actively monitor them. It would be through a specific allegation relating to a code of conduct or a criminal investigation.

As I alluded to, if it's a criminal investigation, we will always seek judicial authority. If it's an internal code, then potentially the investigator will consult with digital forensics and make an assessment as to whether it's required or not.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[Aaron McCrorie]

Thank you for the question.

No. We use these tools only in the pursuit of criminal investigations related to our border mandate, always with the use of a judicial authorization.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[France Gratton]

The answer is no. We don't use the software on employees' cellphones. We use it only on seized, contraband cellular phones that would have been introduced into our institution illegally.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you. My next question is for CBSA.

You talked about seized devices. If I'm going through security coming into Canada and I'm taken off to secondary screening and you seize my phone, is that an instance where you would use this software?

[Aaron McCrorie]

No.

There are two different situations at play there. When you're crossing the border, there are regulatory requirements in place that allow us to do a search. If there's a search of a cellphone, that is done manually with the co-operation of the person in front of us.

The use of this technology in my particular organization is part of criminal investigations that, more often than not, are taking place inland and are related to things like firearms smuggling or violations of the IRPA. That's related to, for example, violations of the Immigration Act and counselling people to misrepresent themselves in order to get new immigration documents.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

When it's seized and reviewed manually, is this software not used?

[Aaron McCrorie]

No.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you for that.

I think the RCMP might be best-placed to speak to this.

Can you explain the process you need to go through in order to get information from a cellphone? It's a criminal investigation. What is the process that you need to go through in order to use this software or anything else to access a phone?

[Nicolas Gagné, Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

The digital forensic examiner would first get a copy of the warrant—the judicial authorization—to see what is the scope. They would determine which tool to use, depending on capability. Those capabilities vary depending on the make, model and operating system. They would retrieve—as much as possible—an image of the device. Sometimes it's not possible. Sometimes it's not possible at all to retrieve anything. Once the information is retrieved, the digital forensic examiner would then narrow it down to the width and scope of the warrant.

That is the report that would be provided to the investigator.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

There have been implications that this software is being used to access Canadians' phones. I think I'm hearing from all of you that the case is that, if this software is used for the general public.... We heard previously that there are employees who are subject to its use on their phones. None of you are in that situation, but I think, more broadly, Canadians can feel confident that you're not accessing their cellphones without following the proper judicial process.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

That's correct. These tools are targeted to a specific device. For example, in 2023, we examined 6,452 devices—that could be a smart phone, tablet or computer—across the country, but those are with judicial authorization so there's actually a tangible piece of evidence that we have. As I alluded to, a witness or a victim of crime may share their consent because they want to provide evidentiary documentary.

Given the complexity of this, I would like to extend to the committee an opportunity. If you would like a technical briefing, Superintendent Nicolas Gagné and his team, at your convenience with the clerk, would be pleased to welcome you into an RCMP facility and we would take you through how we extract digital evidence with judicial authorization so you could understand the complexity, the skill set, the training and the work we do.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Actually, having been part of an RCMP technical briefing on another issue, I would love to take you up on that. I would encourage the chair to perhaps follow up on the committee's taking advantage of the offer we've just been given.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Just to advise the committee, if there is a desire, we would need a travel request on behalf of the committee to do that, which would be sent to the Liaison Committee. I believe the deadline for that is February 16. That's something for the committee to consider.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will address all three organizations and ask them to answer me one after the other.

During the investigation by Radio-Canada, you said you had not conducted any privacy impact assessments. Did I understand correctly?

Let’s start with you, Mr. Larkin.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

That is correct.

We're in the process of completing it. We met with the Privacy Commissioner in 2021. However, we expect our privacy impact assessment to be complete by 2024. We do not have one for digital forensic tools. We do have one for ODITs, which is actually posted on our website.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. McCrorie, I’m listening.

[Aaron McCrorie]

We use the personal information bank for now to demonstrate what information we're gathering and how we're using it, and we're in the process of doing a PIA, which we aim to have done.... It will probably be a little longer than for the RCMP, but we're aiming to have it done in co-operation with the OPC.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So it’s ongoing, but it’s not finished.

[Aaron McCrorie]

Exactly.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Ms. Gratton, over to you.