Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay. All I wanted to establish is that I understand. This is really scary technology to a lot of people if it's used improperly, and we need to have safeguards to make sure that it's not used improperly. There are a lot of bad things that can happen, but we have no evidence of that, and I don't want to scare Canadians into believing that's actually happening.

[Evan Light]

At the same time, we don't necessarily have any oversight or transparency on the use of these tools, going back almost four years now.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I mean, again, that's your contention. I would say that we actually do have oversight based on the heads of the departments and the people who, again, are under pretty strong ethical rules to comply, but I get what you're saying. Of course, there are fears, and we have to make sure there are safeguards. Our job as a committee is to make recommendations to make sure policies and regulations are in place to mitigate any concerns that may exist.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm wondering if Mr. Housefather wishes to become a witness and we can cross-examine him, because he's certainly giving evidence at this—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I don't think that's a point of order, Chair.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

He's giving evidence that this committee has not heard through witnesses.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm not sure why we're stopping this—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I actually just read from the witness testimony—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Hold on, Mr. Housefather.

That's not a point of order, Mr. Brock.

Mr. Housefather has the floor and, like all members, he's entitled to give his opinion and his comments and ask his questions. As members of the committee know, members' time is their time.

Go ahead, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I stopped it at 1:14.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I appreciate my colleague Mr. Brock's comments. He is probably the person who would be the most verbose in terms of giving his opinions about things, so I am just a little surprised.

Coming back to you, Mr. Light, on a larger question, I understand the many issues you've raised in your literature, and I'm looking forward to getting the translated copies when we get them. We haven't gotten them yet.

If you had one recommendation that you wanted to give to change existing Treasury Board policies or other existing policies, what would it be—your primary one?

[Evan Light]

I would say that privacy impact assessments from the Treasury Board should be mandatory in law but also should come before anything is purchased. To date in my broader research, we've asked for around 250 to 300 ATIPs for hundreds of contracts, adding up to about 800 million dollars' worth of purchases related to surveillance. It's a huge amount of money.

Just recently, I got an updated contract from Teel Technologies for mobile forensic devices—the Copyright Board was a new agency that came up as a receiver of these things—for $11 million. It was a recent contract, a renewal. If we're going to be careful with money, we should really ask hard questions about what technology is purchased before it's purchased.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather and Mr. Light.

I'm going to ask everyone to speak more slowly, to make things easier for the interpreters.

I didn't know you were an auctioneer, Mr. Housefather. Is that true? No.

If you can, just speak a bit more slowly for the interpreters, if you don't mind. Thank you so much.

Go ahead, Mr. Villemure. You have six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Light.

Your research led to an article, and that is why we are here today. We've heard a lot of the same things so far. Officials told us that they had acquired the tool and conducted checks in the past. They said that they had not carried out privacy impact assessments but would. That's the gist of much of what we heard.

Do you think an attitude like that is appropriate when it comes to protecting privacy?

[Evan Light]

No.

Keep in mind that I mentioned the normalization of surveillance within government in the CBC article that came out in November.

I think I was quoted here at committee as speaking about what for me seemed to be a normalization of surveillance within government.

That's something that worries me. It's as though surveillance is something normal, but it should actually be something that's rare. Privacy is a fundamental right and should be protected by default.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Most of the witness also told us that they had obtained judicial authorization and had acted within the limits of those warrants. I asked them whether the warrant had replaced the privacy impact assessment, but the answers I got weren't very satisfactory. I felt as though I was asking a pointless question.

Do you think a privacy impact assessment should come before or after a warrant or take its place altogether?

[Evan Light]

I think it absolutely has to come before a warrant.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Should the legislation be amended to require organizations to always start with a privacy impact assessment?

[Evan Light]

Yes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Very well.

You were talking about the principle of proportionality earlier. In the organizations' search for information, were these the only available tools to obtain the information in question, or was their use too invasive? You touched on proportionality in your opening remarks, but I'd like you to provide more information on that.

[Evan Light]

I think that came up when the officials were here. Tuesday, for instance, Scott Jones and Mario Mainville talked about having to balance the violation of employee privacy and the data that are needed or that exist. In their use of the tools, there is an attempt to strike a balance.