Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Commr Michael Duheme]

There would have been a fulsome decision if we had to lay charges or not lay charges. There would have been a fulsome briefing with the commissioner as to the reasons why.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In terms of specificity.... We talked about phases. I want to get crystal clear for a moment and suggest to you that this committee, in my opinion, would have powers to send for documents, including primary documents that would be within the RCMP related to this particular case.

Rather than us having to move a motion to demand documents, I hope you can put on the record today when exactly it was made public that the investigation had ceased. You said spring 2021.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

The Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould was informed in January 2023. I am not quite sure if we went out publicly for that. Following the discussion we had with Ms. Wilson-Raybould, we did inform Mr. Scheer, who had written a complaint to the commissioner, and we responded to that letter. I'm not sure about the exact date it went public.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I would suggest to you that, given that there's a two-year span or at least a year and a half between when the decision was made and when it was ultimately made public, it's highly problematic, given the timing and the politics at that time. The question I put to you is, why did it take a year and a half from the decision to end the investigation to the time it was made public?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I have said it earlier, Mr. Chair. It's an internal matter, which has been addressed. It's hard to think that this would be suspended when no one in government was briefed on this file until the.... I didn't even brief the Prime Minister or the minister, even after we informed Ms. Wilson-Raybould. It's entirely on us, the delay of a year and a half. It has nothing to do with—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Who made that decision?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It was a combination of a change in reporting structure.... The reports were not getting up and proper follow-ups were not made, so it was done inadvertently.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I would put to you, sir, given the seriousness of this at the highest level of leadership in our country, that an inadvertent omission for a year and a half—with these allegations floating out there about the Prime Minister and the kind of cynicism and lack of trust that the hyper partisanship would bring in this environment—warrants more than a response of an inadvertent change in command.

I go back to you because, ultimately, now you are the leader, the commissioner of the RCMP. How do you take responsibility for this? Given the highly politically explosive nature of this—it was literally a campaign question, I believe, in 2019, and it certainly continues to be a political question to this day, so many years later—how does that happen?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I don't have an explanation of how this happened. Honestly, there is a combination of factors, but as I said, we've put measures in place. For a sensitive file of this nature, from now on there's monthly reporting provided to the commissioner to ensure that we don't miss anything.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I want to be very clear, because this committee has the power to send for documents. I just need this to be on the record. This is not a personal accusation to you or your character. If I were to move a motion today asking for the timelines and the internal documents related to the decision-making, and it came back to the committee, is it your testimony that it would be 100% congruent that, somehow, it just fell off somebody's desk somewhere and there was no internal communication, based on the timing of the decision to ultimately go public on this?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'm more than happy to provide the committee here any information on the timelines. As I said, to the best of my recollection as the deputy commissioner, there was some change at the senior level staff just underneath, who were reporting to me, so that we incurred delays, and I'm sure there are other factors as to why we had delays.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

With that, and giving him the courtesy and the respect accorded to a commissioner of the RCMP, I will not move a motion for that. However, I do want to go on the record, Mr. Chair, that there has been an offer to submit internal emails and communications regarding the timelines of the gap between when the decision was made to end the investigation and when it was made public.

I just want to make sure that's what we understand collectively as a committee here, without having to move a motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That is my understanding.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is that yours?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Duheme.

That concludes our first round of the second hour. We go to five-minute rounds, and we start with Mr. Brock.

Mr. Brock, go ahead for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Gentlemen, pursuant to the ATIP received by Democracy Watch, I understand that, literally within hours of Jody Wilson-Raybould's testimony at the justice committee, you were engaging in discussions with a local Crown attorney. Is that correct?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I would say, Mr. Chair, following the review of the testimony, yes, there was some consultation made.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There was a telephone call. There was actually a meeting with the Crown attorney the very next day. Is that your recollection?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

It was shortly after. I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, that I cannot remember exactly the day, but shortly after, yes, that's correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did you get any sense from the Crown attorney during those initial discussions, those initial days, that there was a reluctance from the Crown prosecution service to give you advice with respect to charging Justin Trudeau?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I will not go into the full details of the discussion that took place between us and the Crown in regard to this, but yes, there was some discussion that took place shortly after. That's correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We know that every charge under the Criminal Code carries with it two elements, the actus reus and the mens rea—the act itself and the intent. Is that correct?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

That's correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Are you familiar with the leading authority on obstruction of justice, Regina v. Beaudry from the Supreme Court of Canada?