Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Yes. I wasn't asking you on timing. I just wanted to recollect that she was shuffled and then resigned. She was never fired. The word “fired” keeps coming up for some reason, and I wanted to clarify that.
I remember that in your testimony when you testified before the justice committee, you talked about the fact that there were not two classes of justice in Canada and that the rule of law prevails.
Do you still maintain that opinion?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In 2024?
Liberal
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I certainly hope so.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Fine: I note that only because we're here and I think the purpose of the committee is to look into the RCMP's investigation.
I personally trust in the RCMP. I believe they follow the rule of law and that they don't have political interference in their deliberations or in the way they determine whether or not to prosecute or to terminate work on a case. I think that's the testimony we've heard up until now on the RCMP side. I wanted to make sure that nothing in the RCMP's testimony here has changed your opinion about the rule of law prevailing in Canada.
I gather that's a no.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, and we have a very healthy set of feedback loops and accountability tools in Canada.
I'll venture out and point you to the ArriveCAN issue, which has blown up in the last little while. We have a parliamentary committee at work. We have at least three—I think it's four—officers of Parliament at work, and we do have a police investigation. In fact, there was a entanglement last week at one of the parliamentary committees because witnesses didn't want to compromise a police investigation.
We have all kinds of accountability tools in Canada, which seem to still be functional.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Okay. That's good to know. Checks and balances are always important.
Let me end my questioning, Mr. Wernick, because I think that, really, the purpose for you being here is still a little dubious to me, other than to rehash what happened in 2019. Can I ask you not whether you have any regrets but whether you have any thoughts to share as to improvements to the system based on your reflections over what happened with SNC that we should be considering as legislative or regulatory changes to put into effect or procedural changes?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, as I said to Mr. Green, I think there is some redrafting and clarification that could be put into the provisions around deferred prosecution agreements, because it will come up again, and, as I think I said at a previous appearance at this committee, I would like to see proactive transparency legislation.
I'm very disappointed that Parliament dropped the ball on access to information. You could write laws that require proactive disclosure of all kinds of sources of government information and make those practices permanent, because any future government can roll them back.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I have one last question, Mr. Chair.
I have just one last question based on your experience, Mr. Wernick, and I also do want to thank you for your service. If the RCMP wanted to get at materials that were a cabinet confidence and, for whatever reason, the Clerk of the Privy Council rejected the request from the RCMP, does the RCMP not have other judicial tools it theoretically could use to obtain those materials or to seek to obtain those materials?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes. I mean, I'm not a lawyer. My understanding is that you always have a referee: the Federal Court and the Supreme Court Some issues on redaction, disclosure and withholding have gone to the Federal Court and even to the Supreme Court.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
As you said, there's always a tension between the executive, legislative and judicial branches—and that would be a dispute resolution at the judicial branch.
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Housefather and Mr. Wernick.
Mr. Brock, for five minutes.
Go ahead.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I would like at this time to move a motion:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order Mr. Wernick and the Privy Council Office to produce all records of communications between Mr. Wernick and any board members, employees, or representatives of SNC-Lavalin (now AtkinsRéalis) between the period of November 4th, 2015 - March 19th, 2024, and that these communications be provided within 14 days of the adoption of this motion.
I hope we have unanimous consent.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you for that, Mr. Brock.
Has that been distributed to the clerk or not?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
My understanding is that there's no requirement for that to be sent to the clerk if it's a verbal notice.
Mr. Brock has moved a motion. It is in order and is related to this.
Ms. Damoff, did you have something?
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I did, Chair. I just wondered if we could suspend until we get a copy of it, please.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay.
It has been sent. I am going to suspend for a minute.
Is it in both official languages, too, just to be clear?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Ms. Damoff, it is a verbal motion, so there's no requirement for it to be distributed.
What I'm going to do is to ask Mr. Brock to read it again slowly for the interpreters.
If you can do that, Mr. Brock, go ahead, please.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I'm happy to. It reads as follows
That, Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order Mr. Wernick and the Privy Council Office to produce all records of communications between Mr. Wernick and any board members, employees, or representatives of SNC-Lavalin (now AtkinsRéalis) between the period of November 4th, 2015 - March 19th, 2024, and that these communications be provided within 14 days of the adoption of this motion.