Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. I had left all the issues about cabinet confidences and divulgation to the deputy clerk, so she would have supervised the drafting of it. It's possible that I signed it off as the clerk. I don't remember.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
You had no involvement whatsoever. Did you have no conversations with the Prime Minister? Did the deputy clerk have no conversations with the Prime Minister?
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
As soon as I was invited to the justice committee, I stepped back and recused myself from all the issues around document production.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
You recused yourself entirely. Okay.
You wouldn't be able to comment, for example, on why the order in council was drafted in a way that prevented Jody Wilson-Raybould from providing her full version of events.
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I did not participate in the drafting, but I'm sure we would have tried to strike some sort of balance between the confidentiality of those cabinet meetings and the specifics that Ms. Wilson-Raybould was going to be asked to testify about. I didn't participate in the drafting of that order.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Is it accurate to say that you recused yourself entirely from the drafting of that order in council at any discussions that may have taken place about expanding the scope of that?
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I have a point of order, Chair. I understand that we are meeting today to talk about an RCMP investigation. That was what we—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I have the floor, Mr. Cooper.
Rehashing something that happened five years ago, which has been subject to numerous meetings of a whole bunch of different committees in Parliament.... We're talking about the RCMP. None of these questions have to do with an RCMP investigation.
My understanding, Mr. Chair, is you said he was here to talk about what the motion was in regard to. Maybe we could just stick to that.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You were asking about my Twitter in the last round.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Michael, just hang on a second.
Thank you for that, Ms. Damoff. I appreciate your words.
Mr. Cooper, you have the floor and you can continue on this. I did stop your clock. I expect that you're going to come back....
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
I expect Mr. Wernick to answer the question that I asked.
11:50 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm sorry, but I've lost the thread. What was the question?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
I asked you, Mr. Wernick—before I was interrupted—to clarify that, from the time that you had appeared at the justice committee, you entirely removed yourself from discussions concerning the scope of the order in council and any further discussions or consideration of expanding the scope of that order in council.
11:50 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's correct, and everybody concerned was interviewed by the commissioner in the months that followed.
March 19th, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
To Ms. Damoff's point, it is relevant to the issue of an RCMP investigation because we heard testimony from the RCMP that the strongest theory towards establishing obstruction of justice was whether the Prime Minister removed Jody Wilson-Raybould to get an Attorney General who would make a decision the Prime Minister wanted, and that the RCMP was impeded in its investigation to determine that as a result of the parameters of that order in council.
Mr. Wernick, when you appeared at the justice committee back in 2019, you characterized your interactions, and those of the Prime Minister and his officials, with the Minister of Justice Jody Wilson-Raybould as so-called “lawful advocacy” to appropriately raise “public interest considerations” to the minister, particularly that SNC would move its headquarters from Montreal, resulting in the loss of at least 9,000 jobs. I'm going to ask you, what evidence did the government have that SNC-Lavalin would move its headquarters from Montreal if a deferred prosecution agreement was not entered into?
11:50 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think we went over this at the justice committee. There were representations, public statements and market disclosures made by SNC.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Wernick, you must have known that SNC had a financing agreement with the Caisse de dépôt that required it to maintain its headquarters in Montreal for another six years until 2024. It was public knowledge that SNC had entered a 20-year lease at its Montreal headquarters and had also announced major renovations to its headquarters in Montreal, worth millions. Two days before your infamous December 19, 2018, telephone call with Jody Wilson-Raybould, in which you specifically raised the issue of 9,000 jobs and SNC moving its headquarters, the CEO—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Hang on, Mr. Cooper.
Go ahead with your point of order, Mr. Chahal. I just advise you that it's been the practice in this committee that I've given members their time to ask questions on a broad range of things in relation to this. If it's to object to the line of questioning from Mr. Cooper....
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Mr. Chair, I haven't even made my point of order yet, so I'm not sure what you're objecting to.