Evidence of meeting #119 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csis.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nicole Giles  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Bo Basler  Director General and Coordinator, Foreign Interference, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 119 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted on Tuesday, February 13, the committee is resuming its study of the impact of disinformation and of misinformation on the work of parliamentarians.

Before we begin, I remind everyone again to consult the cards that are on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Use only the black, approved earpiece. The former grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times, and when you're not using your earpiece, place it down on the sticker that is on the table for this purpose. I thank everyone for their co-operation.

Before we begin, we are going to be dealing with bells at some point this morning. I'm not sure when that's going to be, so I have to keep an eye on that. We'll all keep an eye on that, for projected votes that are to come.

I now welcome our witnesses for our first hour. From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, they are Nicole Giles, who is the senior assistant deputy minister, policy and strategic partnerships—welcome, Ms. Giles—and Mr. Bo Basler, director general and coordinator, foreign interference—welcome to you, sir, this morning.

Ms. Giles, the floor is yours to address the committee. You have up to five minutes. Please go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Nicole Giles Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Good morning, Chair and members of the committee. It's an honour to join you today and to have the opportunity to contribute to your discussion related to misinformation and disinformation. These complex issues cross into a number of different areas of concern for CSIS, as you might imagine, as well as for the government and all Canadians.

Under the CSIS Act, CSIS is mandated to collect intelligence on threats to the security of Canada, to advise government on those threats and, when appropriate, to take measures to reduce them.

Misinformation is incorrect or misleading information that is presented as fact, whereas disinformation is deliberate and deceptive planned messaging to alter narratives. When these activities constitute a threat to the security of Canada, as defined by the CSIS Act, we investigate and we take action. CSIS has long-standing investigations into specific threat actors believed to be targeting Canada's democratic institutions through clandestine, deceptive or threatening means. This is foreign interference.

Foreign states use many tools to counter Canadian narratives and advance their own inflammatory ones.

As state actors become more sophisticated, these threats become harder to identify and counter. A growing number of foreign states have built and deployed programs dedicated to undertaking online influence.

These online influence campaigns attempt to change voter opinions, civil discourse and policy-makers’ choices, as well as sow confusion, discord and distrust in Canadian democratic processes and institutions. They may use a coordinated approach to amplify a single narrative while also promoting inflammatory content.

These tactics can also be leveraged by non-state actors, which can magnify the threat further. Unfortunately, violent extremists use misinformation and disinformation to promote their own narratives, to sow division and discord, and to create mistrust in institutions and authorities in furtherance of a particular ideological position. The spread of misinformation and disinformation online can, in extreme cases, even have the effect of radicalizing individuals to violence.

It is therefore imperative that all Canadians work together. This effort begins with informed and transparent discussions among all levels and branches of government, as well as with communities, academia and businesses. As a committed partner in this effort, CSIS continues to investigate, to provide analysis and advice to government and, when appropriate, to take measures to reduce threats. CSIS also routinely engages and briefs public officials, including members of Parliament, to promote awareness of threat activities and to strengthen individual security practices.

Other tools include stakeholder engagement, which, through education and knowledge dissemination, builds awareness and resilience against these activities in order to protect their interests.

CSIS is keenly aware that diaspora, marginalized and otherwise vulnerable communities are directly targeted by foreign interference and disinformation efforts and are often the most vulnerable in our country. This is why CSIS works hard to listen and better understand the communities that we serve, to establish trusted relationships and to convey threat-related information in multiple languages to increase awareness and resilience to foreign interference, in particular.

The government has proposed amendments to the CSIS Act that seek to close gaps in the legislation. The global shift towards digital communication and technology has widened these gaps. These amendments would enable CSIS to better equip national security partners outside the federal government.

Finally, I will note that I cannot publicly comment on investigations or operational matters in order to protect the safety and security of Canadians. Nonetheless, I welcome this opportunity for a frank and transparent discussion, to the extent possible, and will be happy to answer your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Ms. Giles. I also want to thank you for sticking to the allotted time.

We will begin the first round of questions. Each party will have six minutes.

Mr. Barrett, the floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

The communist dictatorship in Beijing clandestinely and deceptively interfered in both the 2019 and 2021 general elections in Canada. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

That's correct.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Prime Minister Trudeau, members of his Liberal government and Liberal Party officials knew that the interference had occurred. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

The report that's recently come out from the commissioner under the public inquiry into foreign interference laid this out very nicely in terms of the briefings that took place.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

There were briefings that took place.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

That's correct.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

How many times was Prime Minister Trudeau informed?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

What's important to recall is that the structure put in place by the government to govern how information was shared and managed in the case of the federal elections during 2019 and 2021 was done through the critical election incident public protocol panel, or the panel of five.

As a member of the task force related to that—the security and intelligence threats to elections, or SITE, task force—we worked very closely with partners to ensure the panel had the information it required to brief all levels of government, as well as parliamentarians and the government.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I appreciate that. The question is how many times, madam.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

I don't have the exact figure, but, again, what's important is that those would have been the conversations that the national security and intelligence adviser would have had, and CSIS fed into those briefings.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Are you able to say how many times Liberal Party officials were informed, separately from the Prime Minister?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

There were numerous conversations that took place through the course of both of those elections via the panel of five. CSIS was not a part of all those conversations.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

In the 2021 election, disinformation campaigns perpetrated by the communist dictatorship in Beijing against then Conservative leader Erin O'Toole and Conservative candidate Kenny Chiu were detected. Is that correct?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

There were foreign interference activities that took place in the 2021 and 2019 elections, and those spread across a number of different ridings, including the riding for Steveston—Richmond East.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Were the Liberals briefed on this? If the answer is yes, who was briefed on it?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

Again, the timelines and the briefings that took place as part of this are laid out in the report that was tabled by Madam Commissioner.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

The director for CSIS, Mr. Vigneault, said he briefed the government. Are you able to furnish the committee with the names of those who were briefed in writing following your appearance?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

We will have to take that back. A number of briefings that we do are, for obvious reasons, confidential. I'm not able to commit at this time to providing the committee with all of those names, but we'll see what we're able to provide.

Again, I would stress that all of the information that we can make public on this has been provided to the PIFI commission, and a lot of it has already been disclosed in that report.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What action was taken when the disinformation campaign was detected?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

The way the process works with SITE is that as the members of the SITE task force collect information and intelligence, we feed it into that process, and then protocols are triggered in terms of providing that information up to the senior officials in the panel of five. Decisions are also taken on whether to brief the cleared political parties.

That's during the election period. As this committee is very aware, there are a lot of foreign interference activities, including misinformation and disinformation campaigns, that take place outside of the writ period.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Yes.

In 2019, were Liberal Party officials told that the current member for Don Valley North was being monitored by CSIS?

Give a yes or no answer, please.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Partnerships, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Dr. Nicole Giles

Bo, do you have the specifics on that?