Information & Ethics Committee on May 12th, 2022

[Mario Dion]

To recapitulate, when an MP is concerned, only the House can punish that MP. The commissioner may make a recommendation in a report, and I've done so on one or two occasions. It's sufficient and, constitutionally, it's the only option, in any event.

Under the act for public officials—ministers, parliamentary secretaries, ministerial staff, GICs and so on—I do not have any authority, except for administrative penalties. Should the government and an MP decide they want to introduce a bill to change the act, I will be pleased to express my point of view when they do. I think it's premature to do so, because we haven't done any serious study of this matter. My role is—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let me ask you—

[Mario Dion]

—to implement the act as it is, not to dream of a new act. I'm not in government.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm dreaming, sir, today, here with you. I appreciate your coming along with me on that ride, because I believe we could do this better. I think about how we spent time during COVID going through a scandal, which ultimately caused somebody to resign and move on. I don't see the connection between the occurrence, scale and scope of the scandal versus what's actually there as a penalty. It would be one that's non-political.

I'll ask you a question with specificity on the estimates.

Are there any other aspects of your operating budget that should be highlighted?

[Mario Dion]

No. I think I've done so already regarding the three areas of increases. Everything else is fine and under control. We operate independently from government and from the Treasury Board, so it's perfectly fine.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you facing any challenges, monetary or otherwise?

[Mario Dion]

No.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you saying there are none at all?

[Mario Dion]

No. However, things evolve, of course. I reserve the right. There was a 43% increase in the number of situations where we gave advice last year, so it's possible that, if it continues, we will need some additional resources, but not at this point.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The right has been reserved, Mr. Dion.

Thank you for your service, and I appreciate your being before us here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

We're going to do one more round and I'm going to cut the times a little in order to make sure we finish this meeting on time with respect to members who are travelling this evening.

We'll go now to Mr. Kurek for, let's say, four minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, thank you for your work.

Let me note that I very much appreciate the work your office does in helping to make sure that MPs are able to fulfill their obligations. The availability of your staff has been fantastic, so thank you for that. I appreciate that.

[Mario Dion]

Thank you.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

My first question is this: Has your office ever been contacted by law enforcement for the purpose of evidence collection?

[Mario Dion]

That is privileged information, I'm afraid. I cannot answer that.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Dion, is there a precedent to reopen an investigation that you or one of your predecessors previously closed if new evidence came to light?

[Mario Dion]

There isn't, to my knowledge. I would have to check, but I'm 99% certain that it has certainly not happened in the four and a half years I've been there.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

With your understanding of the act, do you have the ability to reopen an investigation where you have already tabled a report in Parliament if, for example, new evidence came to light?

[Mario Dion]

Mr. Chair, I have already expressed my view on that. I don't believe I have the authority to do that. There is no express authority anywhere in the act. It is my view that I do not have that authority. If confronted with the issue, then of course I would have to consult with my lawyers, but that is my view.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

My colleague Mr. Bezan referenced public interest as being a reason not to pursue charges when it comes to the information that was revealed in an ATIP of the investigative material related to the RCMP investigation.

In your work as commissioner, have you used similar logic—not pursuing an investigation or consequences from somebody's actions because of the public interest?

[Mario Dion]

No, I have not ever.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you for that.

I am curious about the penalties. Certainly over the course of time that I have been a member of Parliament, having run in two elections now, when folks ask about ethics violations, especially as there have been some very high-profile ones, and what the penalty is, when I outline some of the details in the act, $500 is not significant in the eyes of many Canadians. I would agree with them.

Do you think it's monetary penalties or do you think other metrics should be involved to ensure that there is a disincentive for public office holders to break the rules?

[Mario Dion]

Section 19 of the act says that abiding by the act is a condition of employment. The government as an employer, faced with a situation where I have found a contravention of the Conflict of Interest Act, has the power to basically impose disciplinary sanctions, up to and including removal. Section 19 is very clear about that. As the employer, the government can make that decision based on the facts of the case.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

I would simply note that this regime is incredibly important. I've certainly heard from constituents who have had their trust shaken in the institutions of our government by the actions of some, including that of the Prime Minister, so thank you very much, Commissioner, for your work. As this committee is able to review things like penalties and other aspects of the act, I look forward to engaging with you, hopefully, as some of my other colleagues have said, for your suggestions as to how we can make sure that ethics are part of the government.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Now we will go to Mr. Bains for four minutes.