Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to Ms. Hepfner. You have six minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the minister for being here today without hesitation to answer our questions. I think it takes a lot of courage to immediately admit that you made a mistake and to commit to ensuring that the same mistake won't happen again.

I will tell you that during the pandemic, when all of this was rolling out and these contracts were happening, I was on the other side. I was a journalist. I was mostly tasked with covering those daily news conferences. I have to say that from my perspective, the information was clear. There was a lot of information. These were really complicated programs that the government was rolling out. I want to thank you for making it easy for journalists to absorb all that information.

As a former broadcaster, I know that this sort of thing doesn't come naturally or easily to most people. I'm wondering if you can tell me what you were going through during that time when the government was rolling out these programs to help Canadians and you were faced with this task of communicating that.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

The only thing that was going through my mind was the work that was needed to help businesses keep their employees on payroll and to help businesses get through the enormous difficulty when their doors shut and they had no revenue coming in.

I grew up in a small business. I know what it means if your door is shut and you have no more customers but you have staff on the payroll and you need to pay them.

I know that many businesses were talking to us. We had an 11 o'clock call in my department. There were thousands upon thousands of businesses. All the members here were faced with calls and requests for information from their constituents and from their businesses about what the government was going to do. Many people will remember the Prime Minister speaking day to day to the press and then many ministers, including me, having the small business file, being among those—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Excuse me, Minister.

Mr. Green, I believe I know what your point is going to be. Minister, I understand that you have the earpiece in your hand.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It's causing a problem for not just the interpreters but I suspect Mr. Green as well.

Go ahead, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It was mostly for interpretation. It was noted that it was creating a lot of feedback and distraction.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

I stopped the time, Ms. Hepfner.

Minister, go ahead, please.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I apologize for that, MP Green, and I apologize to the interpreter.

As I was saying, the only thing on my mind was how to make sure that we got the information out about the programs. They were changing as well, because they were responding to the needs of businesses at the time. When I look back on the kinds of programs that were lending support, it was the small business loan. It was the deferral of the GST and HST for small business owners and for entrepreneurs, those sole proprietors. There were wage subsidies to make sure that employers could keep their employees on staff. It was deferring income taxes and it was relief for commercial rent. There were supports for young entrepreneurs, high-growth companies that had a different threshold that they needed to meet, and it was making sure that there were regional supports, because the needs across the country were different.

These were developed over the course of days and weeks, and my absolute priority, the government's absolute priority, was to be sure that we were able to effectively share this information with business owners and entrepreneurs so that they could access the supports.

Today I would say that some 5.3 million jobs were saved because of the wage subsidy. To give you a sense of the take-up on the loans, within a week of our launching that small business loan program, there were just under 200,000 businesses that were approved within a week, just to give you a scale. Through that period, there were just under a million businesses, about 960,000 businesses, that got access to the loan. On the deferral of GST, HST and customs duties, 3.2 million businesses were helped because of just those three things, in addition to the list of other programs and supports that we'd put forward.

To answer your question, that was the top priority. That was the top priority for days, for weeks and for months, and we kept doing this work. I would say that everyone did this work, including all members here, because we all represent business owners, we all represent Canadians and we all represent those constituents who were looking to us.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Do you think there would have been as much uptake of those programs? Do you think as many Canadians and as many businesses would have benefited if you hadn't been able to communicate those programs effectively?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Even through all of our communications channels, through the media who were asking us questions, through social media channels, through communicating through members of Parliament's offices, through business associations like chambers of commerce and the various business associations, we were communicating and sharing. Even with that, there was still incredible demand, because businesses, particularly the small businesses that are 99% of this country, have a range of skills and resources, so our doing everything we possibly could to get the information out with clarity and to be able to assist them at the time of an absolute crisis in this country was the focus. Yes, I do believe that the level and number of communications helped Canadians understand what was there so that they could appropriately get the support to get them through what was a very difficult time in this country.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Did your training through Pomp & Circumstance make your communications easier or better? Did it help?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

It did help, because as the small business minister, I saw that before the pandemic the media requests were not at that level of volume. I can tell you that immediately when the pandemic hit, because so many small businesses across the country were directly affected and wanted information from the government, the requests increased exponentially, not only from the media but also from stakeholders and from Canadians all across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, thank you very much for agreeing to appear before the committee.

Before we begin, I'd like to provide a bit of context.

You admitted the error right off the bat, but we're not interested this morning in the positive consequences of the violation. So I will focus on the fact itself.

In our view, under the current circumstances, considering that public trust in the political class is sometimes a bit fraught with cynicism, is an apology enough?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I want to draw the committee to the conclusion of the commissioner. The determination here was that I had failed to recuse myself. It wasn't the contract amount, because that met the rules. It wasn't the work itself, which was done and performed under severe timelines; and it was not the fact that a qualified firm was indeed retained. I have apologized. I recognize that mistake and that error.

I also recognize that I have to work even harder to demonstrate to the Canadian public that I have work to do to make sure they understand that I take this seriously, which I do, along with the proactive work that has to be done, that is being done. I've initiated a screen with the Ethics Commissioner between Pomp & Circumstance, Ms. Alvaro, and myself and my office. I've arranged for training, which will take place within a month, delivered by the commissioner to my own staff as well. As well, I continue to work with the commissioner.

I would also say that a lesson I have learned here is that the commissioner is there as a resource, and should there ever be any questions that need advice, we could certainly be reaching out more, and I also intend to do that. Those are the various steps. I think for me, as a responsible public office holder, that is my work, and I need to keep doing that hard work for Canadians.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Public trust is at the root of the commissioner's duties. With respect to public office holders, that's kind of what we're concerned about.

Who in your office decided to award this contract?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

When you are minister, you have a delegation of authority, so those who are delegated with the authority to act on your behalf for a range of matters do so. Those delegations work with respect to not only my own political staff but also the civil service and the deputy as well. In this particular case, it was my office that initiated and negotiated the contract.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Ethically speaking, the rules set forth by the commissioner are the minimum required to ensure that the public trust is not undermined.

Should we improve either the rules or the measures to maintain that trust at an optimal level?

These rules represent a threshold, a minimum. In your opinion, based on your experience, what more could we do?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think ensuring that the public always has trust in Canadian institutions and in those who serve it, such as the office-holders in the ethics commission or any of the office-holders who do the job of ensuring that our public institutions operate, is enormously important. In fact, we as Canadians should be proud of that, because I think we have among the strongest institutions in the world.

I think, as I said earlier, the lesson learned here for me is to continue to do the work of making sure that staff, new staff, understand their obligations. You don't do training once; you do it with some regularity. You do a refresher so that those who come in to do their jobs have the tools they need. Part of having the tools to do their jobs is understanding the rules that they fall within. As someone who has spent her career in learning institutions or in the area of learning, I think continuous learning and making sure institutions and organizations work fully is what Canadians expect of us; this is what I mean about needing to work hard and continuing to work hard.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Pardon me for interrupting, but I don't have much time left.

In your opinion, would it be helpful for people to have a clear understanding of the concepts of interest and conflict of interest? We always say that we should avoid conflict of interest. It's easy to say that, but is it well understood?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think it's always good to have more understanding. Ensuring that there is better understanding of all obligations and of the role of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner is something that we should all understand—public office holders, ministers like myself and indeed all of us.

There are mechanisms in place. We all fill out a declaration every year. I think that process is a good one, because it is up to date and holds us accountable, and that is good.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

I gave a little more time to each speaker.

You're next, Mr. Green. You may get a little more than six minutes because I have given it to some of the other as well. Thank you.

Mr. Green, you have six minutes or more.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Ng, I'm going to ask a series of questions in a rather rapid way. I'm going to ask that you keep your remarks as brief as possible. If there are opportunities for you to apply yes or no, that would suffice.

We really want to get to the heart of the matter and hopefully be able to move beyond this situation in our committee and get to the good work of the ethics committee.

I'm going to begin with your relationship with Ms. Alvaro. You mentioned that you've been friends for quite some time. Did Ms. Alvaro ever work in any capacity for any of your political campaigns, and if so, in what role was it?