Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. At the conclusion of this meeting, Ms. Ng, I would request you have your staff prepare a list of deliverables in terms of the outcomes and note where Ms. Alvaro “facilitated and supported”. I've done a quick search. I'm not finding a lot of your stuff online here. I'm seeing this is supposed to be facilitated and delivered, but particularly on Twitter, I'm not really seeing a lot.

I'm going to go back to your relationship.

You're mentioning that you're doing the work, that you're training. Would that not have been part of the course of your ascension to minister? Are you suggesting you didn't know this was going to be a conflict going into this and that you need training on what is the most basic pecuniary interest for your close friend? Is that something you didn't know?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

What I mean by the training is that we can always improve, and certainly after the finding of this report.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Were you aware of compliance or preventive measures available to you? I'm just a fourth-party backbench MP. I recall my orientation, and they were pretty clear about this stuff. I'm wondering at what point did you miss this. Did you not, as a minister, have an enhanced education on what would be considered a conflict of interest, yes or no?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I didn't recuse. That was a mistake. I understood that we were under compliance because the Treasury Board rules were met on the amount of the contract—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not compliance. Not recusing makes you out of compliance. The fact you didn't recuse yourself tells me you either knew and did it anyway or you didn't know.

My question to you is, were you aware there were compliance preventive measures available to you? If so, why did you not recuse yourself? You've done this contract twice now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Give a short answer, Minister.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I failed to recuse both times. The commissioner found that. That was the error. I accept that error.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We're going now to our second round. I am going to stick to the timelines on this round. We'll start with Ms. Lantsman for five minutes.

I do acknowledge that Ms. Roberts is here as well, on behalf of Mr. Dalton.

Ms. Lantsman, you have five minutes, please.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks, Minister, for being here.

The statement says you take full responsibility for your actions. We know you didn't recuse yourself. We know there was a failure to recuse. We know you furthered the interest of a friend to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

You said, “full responsibility”. Do you think you should pay back the money? Do you think you should pay back the money to the taxpayer?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think I answered this earlier, but I think it bears repeating.

It was my mistake not to recuse. That's what resulted in the commissioner's finding. It was not the work itself, which was completed. It was not that a qualified firm was hired. It was the failure to recuse. For this error, I have said to this committee and to the House and to the public that I apologize. In an effort to continue to work hard for Canadians and to make sure this will never happen again, I have initiated strengthened protocols.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes, we know what you've initiated and we know that you've apologized, but for “full responsibility”, I think most people would deem that to mean you would pay back the money. Not only did you not recuse yourself, but you furthered the interest of your best friend. I think we'll leave that there.

You had 104 staffers in communications: four from the exempt staff, which means they work in your office, and 100 from the department, from what the deputy minister said. Couldn't they write the talking points? You said the documents we got last night at 9:45 were fulsome documents. It didn't seem like a fulsome contract.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Was that the question?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes—well, if you want a question., what was in those documents that the 104 people couldn't do during that time?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

With respect to the documents, I think I shared earlier with your colleague that we have, and are in compliance with, the motion.

In 2020, it really was all hands on deck. The team at global affairs does excellent work. They work with three different ministers. They also do work across the globe, and my team also does that communications work as well. The extraordinary effort that was required at the beginning of the pandemic was such that we really needed all hands on deck. The requirements for me to share with Canadians the range of supports that went from—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I think we heard a bit more of that. I'm going to go on to some questions.

There was a failure of recusal in order to further the interest of your friend to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, in addition to the 104 communications staff—that is, 208 hands—to write the talking points, which we got at committee last night at 9:45, and which weren't fulsome.

I have a question.

You grew up in a small business. If somebody stole from the small business, you would expect an apology, you would expect a commitment not to do that again, and you would probably, in the case that it was possible, expect the person to return what they stole.

Don't you think it's the same here?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I reject that premise. No one stole.

What the commissioner found here was that I failed to recuse. He did not find that the contract amount was an issue. That was in compliance with the Treasury Board guidelines, and the work was done.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Just to be clear, you've given a sole-source contract to the benefit of your friend for tens of thousands of dollars and, just to put it on the record, you do not believe you should pay that money back, given that you broke the rules.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

What I've said to this committee, and through you to the public, is that I regret the error that was made. I know that I have work to do. I know that I will need to work very hard in the eyes of Canadians, and I'm going to do that. I hope they see this work and the work going forward as sincere on my part. I'm taking steps and measures with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to be sure that a screen is put in place for Pomp & Circumstance and for Ms. Alvaro.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

So that's a no.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ms. Lantsman, that's all your time.

Next we'll go to Mr. Fergus for five minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also thank you for being with us today, Madam Minister.

I know that English is your first language and the one that you feel the most comfortable in, so I will continue with that.

Minister, you and your office were asked by this committee to provide materials to this committee, and we gave you a deadline of Tuesday to do so, to provide it to us, so we would have it in time in both official languages. You provided this information to us yesterday, well in advance of Tuesday's deadline. I would like to just thank you for doing so, because it makes our jobs that much easier to be able to have materials in front of us to make this evaluation.

Minister, you spent a bit of time on your opening statement. You also spent some time answering the questions from my colleagues. I would like to ask you a more precise question.

When the deputy minister came before this committee, he suggested that there could be additional training for staff who are involved in the contracting process. What do you think of that recommendation? Can you please be specific as to how we can make sure that the verifications now, going forward, will happen without conflicts of interest coming up again?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I absolutely agree with the deputy. I think there should be additional training. Staff changes over. I've arranged for training with the commissioner's office for my team. That will happen in March. I am also working with the commissioner's office to strengthen protocols to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

When the Ethics Commissioner issued his report, he noted that the material was delivered. It wasn't a matter of the amount being produced, but rather that you failed to recuse yourself.

What are your comments about the report itself? Do you think it was fair?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I appreciate the work the Ethics Commissioner did in this regard and I thank him for it.

What his finding was, in my failure to recuse, is something I accept. I am now working with him to make sure there are preventive measures in place to prevent this from happening again.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

What type of training have you contracted with the Ethics Commissioner, and when will that be happening?