Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

It would probably be for each. It was a lot of work.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Who was in attendance?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

They were done virtually, because it was in the pandemic, so it was me and Ms. Alvaro.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That was one on one.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

There may have been other people on the screen, but I was working with Ms. Alvaro.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Were your four exempt staff, communications staff, on the call?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

On the virtual training for me to do these visual presentations, considering I was the one who had to answer to the public, no.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Those sessions were about $2,000 per hour, and your salary as a minister is about four times the average Canadian salary. For that salary, you used your position to further the interests of your personal friend, your best friend, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

Do you not think that this scenario warrants that taxpayers should be reimbursed? Do you think that someone should pay the money back?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Maybe what I'll do is draw your attention to some of the documents we provided that show the range of work products—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Ma'am, with all due respect, do you think someone should pay the money back, you or the vendor? You could split it. What's—

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I want to be clear about what the issue is that the commissioner examined—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The issue is.... Let me be clear about the issue, and we've heard this from Canadians. The issue is that we have a minister of the Crown who used her position to further the interests of her friend while Canadians are lined up at food banks in record numbers and struggling to keep the heat on in their homes. While this was happening, while small businesses were closing, while businesses were struggling, there wasn't a competition for these contracts. Your friend got a jammy $2,000-per-hour gig, and those cheques cleared, and Canadians are worried about paying their bills, keeping the heat on and being able to afford to feed their families. They want to know if they're going to be made whole. Are Canadians going to get their money back?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

To the point that you made about Canadians and the difficulty, I agree with you. It's exactly why our government has been implementing and putting forward a range of measures to help make life more affordable for Canadians today.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is it yes or no, ma'am?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think I've given you my answer.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Well, it sounds like a no, and it's in the context that you're unwilling to recognize the hardship that Canadians are facing and the enormity of these sums of money to Canadians. It's tens of thousands of dollars at a rate of $2,000 per hour. I think the average Canadian hourly wage works out to about $38 an hour. That's why Canadians have asked if you saw fit to remain in office or if you should resign. That's why we've asked for that.

Will you?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I know that you're not going to accept the answers that I've provided, but I have provided my answers on this matter, and what I've said here is that what Canadians can expect of me is that I will work hard, and I will work hard on their behalf. Working hard on their behalf, including making life more affordable for Canadians, whether it is—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister.

I have Mr. Fergus next. You have five minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Madam Minister, let's talk directly now about matters pertaining to the products and services you received.

What products and services did you receive from Pomp & Circumstance?

Can you describe for us the range of products and services you received from Ms. Alvaro?

How have these products helped you better communicate with Canadians?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much for that question.

There were two full media training sessions. There was a communications plan that was developed. There were a range of communications products, including graphics and videos, to help communicate the supports that were available to small businesses. These were used across a wide range of media, including social media platforms, to reach as many Canadians as possible.

In the material that I provided, you will see a video transcript that I used. It's written in plain language as a way to help, as clearly and as succinctly as possible, to provide information, I hoped, as simply as possible to Canadians at the time.

There were a lot of initiatives at the time. I think we all remember. I listed a range of them, whether they were the HST or GST and customs duty deferrals, which millions of businesses were able to use. How did they help? They helped them meet their cash flow shortage at the time. There were the small business loans. The eligibility requirements that were in that program needed to be clearly shared with Canadian businesses so that they could access it.

There was the 75% wage subsidy. Colleagues here may remember that the threshold changed and evolved in the early days of the pandemic in response to what businesses were telling us at the time. Again, to ensure that there was integrity and to ensure that businesses were able to apply and receive that support, we had to be able to provide information in a very clear way. The communications plan looked at how we might do that and whom we needed to reach.

In my office and my department, there were calls every day at eleven o'clock. In those eleven o'clock calls, businesses, chambers of commerce and business associations shared with us what was happening on the ground and the iterations that we might have to consider making. That was in addition to many in this room, members of Parliament, who shared with us their experiences.

The services and the products were prepared to help us get this very important and critical information to the very people who mattered the most: Canadians and Canadian small businesses.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

At those meetings, you prepared the communications plan and discussed products, graphics and video transcripts. I imagine all that took more than four hours of work, contrary to my colleague in opposition's claim. It certainly took several hours of work to prepare all of that.

Didn't it?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

That would be correct. It would be my direct time that they spent, which would be around two sessions and the hours spent on that. In addition to that, the range of work done and the products prepared, as I just described, were also work performed by Pomp & Circumstance.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The Ethics Commissioner is criticizing your failure to recuse yourself from the awarding of this contract. There was no question of the amount charged, the products delivered and the competence of Pomp & Circumstance, a very reputable company.

Have I understood correctly?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Give a very quick response, Minister.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

That's correct. The value of the contract was below the threshold set out by the Treasury Board. I believed we were in compliance, because we fulfilled compliance with the Treasury Board guidelines.