Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I would just say quickly on the point of order, Chair, that it's important to note that Mr. Kurek is using a House-approved device and that his headset is the one specified by the Speaker's order and has been issued by the House. I think it's important to note that Mr. Kurek has followed all of the rules. I appreciate that there's now a technical issue to resolve, but a House-approved device and the approved headset are being used. He's losing his opportunity to participate in spite of his compliance.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's noted, Mr. Barrett.

You have a minute if you want to take it.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have questions for the witnesses, but we have eaten up a little bit of time with this issue, so I'll cede the floor.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Hopefully we can get that fixed, Mr. Kurek, but I do appreciate the fact that you are using approved headsets and devices.

Ms. Vandenbeld, you have six minutes, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses today. I know you're coming here very much with the desire to ensure that we have a transparent and good code, so I appreciate that.

My first question is for Mr. Metatawabin. I had a campaign volunteer who is indigenous. She's the daughter of a sixties scoop member, so she didn't have a lot of opportunity growing up to learn her culture.

She volunteered on my campaign and brought a lot of wisdom to the campaign. We had a blanket ceremony. Not just me, but other members of my team learned tremendously from her. Then, after the election, she had always wanted to return to her tribe where she had never lived, actually, and one of the only ways to do that was through being a government relations person. There was one spot. Somebody had had it for 25 years. It comes open very rarely. She was offered that and she did take that position so that she could learn her roots.

Under the way that this new code is proposed, would she have had to turn down that lifetime opportunity?

This is for Mr. Metatawabin.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I don't know the details of the code and how it would impact that woman in wanting to work within her home area.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Larkin, if she had volunteered on my campaign, would this mean she would be precluded from taking that opportunity?

[Kyle Larkin]

It's a great question. I would say that the renewed code introduces uncertainty to the process. Whether you're canvassing one time or 10 times or 20 times, it's not very clear what precludes you from receiving that sense of obligation or not being able to engage in the lobbying process.

I would say that she likely would have to work with the Commissioner of Lobbying, but again, the uncertainty that's introduced there will prevent a lot of those folks from even thinking about opportunities like that. I would say that individual probably would be precluded from the opportunity you're speaking about.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

More likely, she may not have actually chosen to participate in a campaign to begin with, knowing that this was something she wanted to do in her future. I think that would have been a great loss for the campaign but also for her.

Mr. Larkin, there's a young fellow who has been involved in my campaigns. He came to Canada at 16. He started door knocking and got involved with the Young Liberals in my riding. It was one of the key ways he was able to integrate. When he went to university, he started studying international development, political science and public affairs with the desire to be part of this world of politics that we're in. He joined my riding association and was involved throughout.

He was offered a position and I think did work for some time with your firm. Does this proposal mean he wouldn't have been able to do that?

[Kyle Larkin]

I would say you're definitely touching on something there. As you know, a lot of young Canadians involve themselves in politics. It could be working on Parliament Hill, it could be canvassing, it could be door knocking or it could be whatever.

As I said before, the renewed code would introduce uncertainty on that activity. The 12-month ban on lobbying is specific for individuals you canvass with, but as you also know, if you're in a riding in Ottawa, for example, you may go out and canvass for five different candidates. If you're in any urban centre, or even in any rural area, you may canvass for several candidates. It could block you from engaging with those individuals even if you've never interacted with them. Even if you're only dropping off campaign literature and literally aren't speaking to any Canadians about that candidate—you may not even visit the campaign office—you'd receive a 12-month ban as a result.

There certainly is that uncertainty that's being introduced through the renewed code.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

What's more likely is that the young fellow who's at university here in Ottawa will tell all his friends and his classmates who are studying public affairs or political science, “Don't get involved in any campaigns, because you might not be able to get a job in this town.”

Is that what might happen?

[Kyle Larkin]

I think that's exactly it.

I would also say that current lobbyists, or those looking to get into the lobbying sector, are naturally risk-averse and certainly wouldn't want to get into any situation in which they would be breaking the law or breaking the code of conduct. I totally agree with you that it would prevent most, if not all, from getting involved in the political process through canvassing, door knocking, dropping off literature or even in senior roles.

As I said before and as you know, lobbyists and public affairs professionals are some of the most passionate in politics. They've been involved in politics since a young age. They might have worked on Parliament Hill or in provincial legislatures. This would have a major impact on some of those most passionate volunteers that we see across Canada.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Ms. Buttle, I want to ask you a similar question.

There's this image in the public of lobbyists as being these bigwig, very rich, connected, powerful people, but a lot of them are just young people who want to get involved. For instance, Results Canada has lobbyists. This is an international development advocacy group. A young woman who works with them worked on my campaign back in 2015. Fortunately, it was not in the last campaign, because would she then have been precluded from taking that job of advocating more development funding for the education of women and girls around the world? Would she not have been able to take that job if she'd gone canvassing for me?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We're over time, Ms. Buttle. I'll give you a very quick response on that one, please.

[Megan Buttle]

I think it goes to the fact that many of us are naturally risk-averse in the industry of lobbying and any government relations activities. The current system sets such a high standard already. We want to maintain that high ethical space and increase transparency, and not dilute that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Buttle and Ms. Vandenbeld.

[A voice]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We need some order here, please.

Mr. Villemure, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Routhier, I am very familiar with the office of the Quebec Lobbyists Commissioner. I would like it if you could define ethical lobbying for us.

[Jean-François Routhier]

There is no definition in the Lobbying Transparency and Ethics Act. The Quebec act defines a lobbying activity as a communication by an individual on behalf of their enterprise, their organization, or a client, with the intention of influencing a decision by a public office holder.

Definitions may vary from case to case and law to law. They may talk about contracts or about influencing legislation, regulations, permits or grants. As I said initially, lobbying schemes that I would characterize as "modern" also provide rules of ethics and conduct that mean that lobbyists—the people who perform lobbying activities—must adhere to certain fundamental ethical principles.

I don't know whether you have looked at Quebec's Code of Conduct for Lobbyists, but some of the rules in that code are very similar to the rules in the federal Lobbyists' Code of Conduct. It talks about generally applicable rules of ethics, such as the prohibition against giving false or fraudulent information, the obligation to say who their real client is, or the fact that they must not try to unduly influence a public office holder.

In the case of Quebec, the most important rule in respect of ethics and integrity is not to try to persuade a public office holder to violate the rules of conduct applicable to that person themself.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Since I have several questions for you and we have only six minutes, I would ask that you try to give brief answers.

Would you give the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct proposed by the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada the gold medal, or do you believe it could be improved?

[Jean-François Routhier]

In fact, I have not done a specific analysis. I have commented on certain proposals made by the Commissioner of Lobbying, primarily in the first version of the code. I think it was a good code, in the first place, for overseeing lobbying at the federal level.

Are there still improvements to be made? Very probably, since all our schemes can be improved.

I think the commissioner has tried to solve some of the problems she faced in enforcing the Lobbying Act and I would say, as a regulator, that it is important to be able to make these adjustments. So I think it is a good code.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

As Quebec's Commissioner of Lobbying, do you believe that McKinsey would have been able to fall through the net of the code proposed by the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada?

[Jean-François Routhier]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

You are talking about a firm that offers its services and we need to see the extent to which the federal act, a subject in which I am not an expert, applies to offering the services of a consulting firm.

Could the rules of conduct be used to interpret the obligations of a consulting firm? I think you have to consult the federal Commissioner of Lobbying.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Certainly, while the letter of the rule is silent, the spirit of the rule is definitely present in this situation.

How far back does the last revision of the Code of Conduct for Lobbyists go in Quebec?