Evidence of meeting #59 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Do you think this will invite loopholing and other means to work around the new language?
President, Government Relations Institute of Canada
No. There has been virtually no signal that there are any systemic issues, or that there is any need.... These changes will not result in any adverse activity and will maintain a high ethical standard for lobbyists.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Buttle. Thank you, Mr. Bains.
Mr. Villemure, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Buttle, I'm going to ask you the same question as I asked Mr. Routhier: I would like you to tell me what the definition of ethical lobbying is, to you.
President, Government Relations Institute of Canada
To capture that, our version and what we see as ethical lobbying is ensuring ethical transparency in all activities. It is built on the respect for a system that Canadians can trust. The objective is to avoid the sense of obligation and to avoid leveraging close relationships, and instead engage in sharing information for the purpose of better public policy.
Bloc
President, Government Relations Institute of Canada
Yes, Canada has one of the world's highest standards of transparency in lobbying. Naturally, it is an industry of individuals who are risk-averse, as several witnesses have already said to date, because our current system has such a high standard.
There is no widespread issue of this nature to require this type of overreach. If we look at the annual reports from OCL, we see that the compliance is quite high. If anything, in a lot of the cases that come forward through OCL, it's less than 1% of activity that's taking place and is registerable. Even within that, more than 50% of them are closed upon the preliminary assessment of those cases.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
You said a little earlier that it is not practical to prescribe a specific amount when it comes to hospitality expenses and it is preferable to apply the concept of "reasonable value". However, we know there are a thousand and one possible definitions of what is reasonable.
In another vein, regardless of whether it is a specific amount or reasonable value, when a person attends 90 events, it adds up and creates a duty to account. Do you agree?
President, Government Relations Institute of Canada
Keeping the current code language around “reasonable” limits is accessible for many, because we don't believe there is a systemic issue of the kind you've just identified. That is not happening to allow for this need of specificity. There is an opportunity to make sure that we are maintaining that high standard of disclosure and transparency. Requiring more defined limits may cause more confusion and not simplify transparency.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you for your answer, but I can assure you that what I have described happens: past experience has shown us.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Next we have Ms. Barron, who is in for Mr. Green, for two and half minutes,
Go ahead, please.
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair. I'm happy to be here.
My question today is for Mr. Jean-François Routhier.
Jean-François, Quebec's Code of Conduct for Lobbyists is a regulation under the Lobbying Transparency and Ethics Act, as opposed to the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct, which is a non-statutory instrument. Would you consider the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct less effective as a result?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
Actually, the Quebec code is enforceable. We believe that this is an important thing for lobbyists' conduct. I do believe that best practices would be to actually make this a regulation that is enforceable. I think the federal government at the federal level would also benefit from that.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
What would you consider to be the gold standard or the benchmark that we should be striving for here around the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct, and is there any further information you could provide to help us move in the right direction?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
It is very difficult to determine the ideal standard. We have done a relatively complete job with the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the OECD, to identify best practices for the oversight of lobbying. I invite you to read the report that has been tabled concerning the Quebec act, with respect to ethics.
I am hearing a lot of discussion, particularly about the value of gifts. These are not issues that have been raised a lot in Quebec.
I think each government has to oversee lobbying based on its own needs and its own circumstances. That is one of the fundamental principles stated by the OECD: the legislation and regulations governing lobbying must be adapted to the socioeconomic context.
Conservative
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
You're at your time right now.
Merci, Mr. Routhier.
Next we have Mr. Barrett for five minutes. Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Thanks, Chair.
I have the same question for each of the witnesses, so could we try to get through your responses with the five minutes that I have?
I'll follow up on Mr. Dalton's question. He was talking about the lack of real consequences with respect to the ethics code for members. If there's no consequence for members of Parliament who break the code that applies to them, what impact does that have on compliance for folks who are subject to the lobbying code?
We'll start with Mr. Larkin, then we'll move through the folks who are joining us virtually.
Treasurer, Public Affairs Association of Canada
I would just draw a very clear distinction between the ethics act and the ethics commissioner and the Lobbying Act and the Commissioner of Lobbying.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
The question is about the ethics code and not the ethics act. It's with respect to the effect on the perception of folks who are subjected to the rules that are governed by the Commissioner of Lobbying. What is the impact if folks who are governed under one set of rules by an officer of Parliament don't face any consequence for not following the rules?
For the folks who are governed under the auspices of a separate officer of Parliament, do you think there's any impact on their compliance if folks who are subject to the other don't have any penalty or consequence?
Treasurer, Public Affairs Association of Canada
I would say that the Lobbying Act and the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct are already so robust that they really does keep lobbyists compliant with the law and with the code. That's why we see such a low rate of non-compliance. It's because lobbyists are already naturally risk-averse with their clients or with the organizations, associations or companies that they work with. They really do believe in a transparent, and a certain and accountable system.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
That's great. Thanks very much.
I will now go to the next witness who is available or ready online.
Go ahead, Madam.
President, Government Relations Institute of Canada
I would say, echoing the same comments, that the code of conduct by the office of the lobbying commissioner is separate and distinct. A lobbyist's reputation and their ability to operate is through trusted transparency that is highly contingent on their reputation of maintaining that level of transparency and trust.
I can't speak for parliamentarians, but I would say that ensuring ethical behaviour is of the utmost importance for a lobbyist to be able to maintain their professional standards and do their job. It avoids that sense of obligation and avoids leveraging any of those close relationships. Instead, it's there for the purpose of sharing information that is so critical to better the public policy environment.