Information & Ethics Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Cherie Wong]

Yes, it's almost as if they were watching.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead. I'm starting the time again.

[Cherie Wong]

Thank you so much.

I think there are crucial needs to rebuild trust in our democratic institutions and for the public to be able to watch and understand what's happening. It's very important.

On the other hand, I also understand that the diaspora communities who would have wanted to participate in this conversation and in this inquiry may not feel safe in a public forum and may not feel safe in an open investigation. I look to my community to see what type of engagement they would like to have in looking into foreign interference and influence in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Wong.

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, for the final intervention, you have two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lau, you had mentioned, I think, a very important point about country-agnostic solutions. Would you agree that the sole fixation in this particular case, solely pertaining to the allegations of Chinese interference, perhaps might miss the point, particularly as it arises to finding solutions that would hopefully safeguard against other diaspora communities?

Could you just reflect on that, and maybe share why you think it's important to have all of the communities involved be a part of this process and not just to leave it up to one diaspora community?

[Ai-Men Lau]

That's a great question.

With respect to the sole focus right now, I think one of the benefits might be.... As was previously mentioned in the other panel, sunlight is best. We definitely need to learn from the tactics. We definitely need to see what these tactics are to innoculate ourselves from them. At the same time, however, foreign interference and electoral meddling are nothing new, and we can reasonably expect them to be a problem and a challenge in the future for all of us to address.

I do hope that while this is in the spotlight at the moment, we are considering what solutions we have moving forward and how we can protect ourselves and be proactive with these solutions.

I also think, for example, on the issue of foreign transnational repression, which is something that was brought up as well, it is not just the Chinese diaspora that is facing this issue. It is other communities, such as Syrian, Iranian or Ukrainian. We need to look at these other communities to see not only that this is a challenge that is siloed but also that we are interconnected and that we have lessons and things we can learn from each other.

I think as well, as do, I'm sure, many of my fellow activists—Cherie and Bill can also speak to this—that it's a very lonely world to be targeted by foreign transnational repression. Something we always say to each other is that we think we are crazy for thinking that something is happening. When we talk about it and we see that this is an actual issue for other people as well, we also build community resilience.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you so much to all the witnesses present. We certainly appreciate your testimony here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

That concludes this round of questioning and this panel.

On behalf of the committee and on behalf of Canadians, I want to thank you, Mr. Chu, Ms. Wong and Ms. Lau, for taking the time today to appear before this committee. The information you provided and will provide has been extremely valuable. I think all committee members will agree on that. Thank you.

We're going to continue on right now.

Mr. Villemure, I understand you have a notice of motion to present. You have the floor.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

I will table a motion, which may have been distributed by the clerk in both official languages. I think all parties have a copy already. I will read it:

That, as part of its study on foreign interference, the committee invite Mr. Raphaël Glucksmann to testify as Chair of the Special Commission on Interference in the Democratic Processes of the European Union, including Disinformation; that the committee allocate a minimum of one hour to hear the said witness during one of the first three Friday morning meetings scheduled for study, prioritizing first the meeting on Friday, March 24, and then the one on March 31 or April 17, 2023.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

I would like to say that Mr. Glucksmann is already on our witness list. I think you want to specify dates for his appearance. It may be difficult for March 24.

However, it's within my purview as chair to make sure we can look at March 31 or April 17.

Go ahead.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

My main request, beyond the date, is that he be heard alone for one hour, given his function and the reports he has written in the past that directly relate to our study.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Villemure has put the motion on the floor. Is there any objection to this? I think we can have consensus on this.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The only objection I would have is to having a single-person panel. I think it's a good idea to have more discussion, but I think there are some other people similar to the witness proposed by Mr. Villemure who could accompany that person on the panel. I would be happy to submit some names to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We do have a motion.

Mr. Green, I see your hand up.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I support the motion. I think the higher the subject matter expertise the better. But if it is the case that there isn't consensus around the table to have the witness solely for one hour, what might help—because, respectfully, some are limited to two-and-a-half-minute rounds in this quick, rapid-fire kind of way—would be the committee's considering of the possibility of allowing that witness to stay over both panels so we could continue the questioning.

That's another option I just thought of here, but I'm willing to support the motion as it is.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, will this be the last meeting on this issue?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I think we need to have that discussion as a committee. I'm going to leave a little time when we get back to that first meeting. I have spoken to all of you about where we go with this given the circumstances at PROC. I thought today's meeting was extremely valuable; it kind of gave us a different perspective. I think we need to have further discussions. I would anticipate that we're going to have at least one more meeting on this particular issue. Then we need to have that discussion perhaps as early as the Tuesday when we get back as to which direction we want to go.

This will happen, though it may not happen actually on the 24th. That may be difficult. The 31st or the 17th are probably two likely dates this particular situation will occur if this motion passes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Is there a possibility that we can have this discussion at subcommittee to try to figure out what the frame is?

If it's going to be one last meeting, we would want to make sure that even if it's two panels.... I like the suggestion of maybe having an overlap. Having this guest overlap, or if there is an opportunity to have a couple more people put on or if we're going to have two or three more meetings, I would just like to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We do have a fairly robust witness list at this point that we could draw from. It's not like we're cherry-picking witnesses here. If we're going to agree on this or not, I would like to see this happen by March 31 if possible.

Mr. Villemure, would you be amenable to having this witness appear on two panels for that day?

Would that be possible, or do you insist on this witness appearing for an hour?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I would not want to delay or impede the work of the committee. That said, since Mr. Glucksmann was the chair of a committee that wrote two reports on the subject, we will surely have several questions for him. It's not set in stone, but the reason I'm moving this motion is simply so that we have enough time to give everyone an opportunity to ask him questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right.

So the motion is before us. I would prefer that we settle this matter. If the motion does not receive unanimous consent, we can proceed to a vote.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

We want to support this. I just want to know in what context.

Is this in the context of six more meetings or in the context of one or two more meetings?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I agree with your position that we should have a subcommittee meeting on this. I'm going to propose that to the vice-chairs. I would suggest that this would likely be just one more meeting on this particular issue. Of course, that's subject to any discussion with the subcommittee.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

With that understanding, then we're comfortable with this. We don't need to do a vote. We're always depending on everybody to act in good faith.