Evidence of meeting #67 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
We had a possible total of 18 board members, but at the time there were 14 board members. A motion was circulated by one of the board members, Ginger Gibson.
She is a former scholar as well. She had sent a motion suggesting that those who were in a conflict of interest or an apparent conflict of interest would recuse themselves. She suggested that a committee of three members with one possible alternate member would deal with this matter.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm going to interject now. I'm going to ask, who were the members she deemed to be in apparent conflict?
Can you name them now, please?
9:25 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
She did not name them. What she did was the opposite. That's to say, she said, I would like to suggest a committee with members who were not there at the time, who were appointed on the board after 2018. That committee and only that committee would be responsible for overseeing the law firm and the accounting firm that had to answer these questions that I had regarding these Chinese donations.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay. I'm going to interject again.
Just so I'm clear, was Alexandre Trudeau part of the board prior to those members joining the board?
Would he have been one of the people who predated the decision for this donation?
9:25 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes. Alexandre Trudeau currently is not on the board of directors. He's a member, but at the time he was on the board of directors and on the executive committee, which is the committee representing the board at the time of these donations.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Sure.
I just noted that he requested to attend committee in this fashion regarding this. That's why I'm raising it.
Did you at any time as the executive member presenting to the board ever receive direction from the board that you felt might have been counter to your rules and regulations or any laws pertaining to the CRA or ISED in your reporting?
Was there anything that you felt was contrary to the best interests of the organization that you perceived as direction from the board?
9:25 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I should mention that I am an emeritus lawyer of the Quebec Bar.
I called the Quebec bar. The CFO called the Ordre des comptables professionnels agréés du Québec. We both came to the conclusion that in order to continue working for the foundation, as upper management we had to build that process. Building that first process meant that those who were there at the time would recuse themselves from any meetings regarding dealing with that Chinese donation, dealing with the law firm, dealing with the accounting. That kind of decision-making process had to be totally independent. They had to recuse themselves. That is the advice that I received.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
They refused, is that correct?
Did they refuse to recuse themselves?
9:25 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
There was a motion that was circulating. This motion received several votes from other board members around. They did not recuse themselves from these meetings, from the meetings that we had with the board.
9:25 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I don't have access to all of my documents, I have to say. I had to give back pretty much everything. It's very limited, what I have. Several emails were sent from some of the board members who are currently on the board of directors, Bruce McNiven and Peter Sahlas, who would send emails back to make corrections around the mandate itself, what the mandate should be. That was the tension at the board level. The other board members would say, “You have to recuse yourself. We want a committee that's totally independent.” That was at the heart of the tension that existed.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
This is my last question.
Knowing what you know about the law and about your obligations and about the fiduciary duties that you have in board governance, is it safe to say that all the people who resigned did so because they were quite aware of the apparent conflict of interest, and they were quite aware of a donation that was not a simple donation, but a very complex donation with complex implications politically, given the name of this foundation and the name of the Prime Minister and the people involved?
Did you step down because you weren't comfortable with your own legal standing?
9:30 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes, I had to step down, and the eight board members who stepped down with me on that day, the Monday.... It wasn't the entire board that resigned together. There were different resignations. There was a block of the majority of the board that resigned on Monday, April 10, because there was a trust issue and there was this tension regarding recusing some members who were asked to recuse themselves.
So there was a breach of trust about getting to the bottom of this, to protect the foundation under the circumstances.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Fournier and Mr. Green.
We will begin the second round. We will have only two five-minute periods, one for the Conservative Party and one for the Liberal Party, and two two-and-a-half-minute periods, one for the Bloc Québécois and one for the NDP.
I'm going to stick to the timelines here. We went way over in the first round. As we start the second hour, I'm going to reset. It will be very similar to the first round, so that each party will have six minutes at the beginning of that round.
Mr. Berthold, you have the floor for five minutes.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Fournier, thank you for being here. Your testimony raises even more questions than I had. I think we'll get a lot of answers in the documents you're going to provide.
You have read about the donation agreement with the cultural organization you named. What is this organization and what do you find anomalous about this agreement?
9:30 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
We had a donation contract, mentioning the University of Montreal, between the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, and two donors identified as individuals who provided their personal addresses in China. From July 9, 2018, until the end of February 2023, I understood that this contract reflected reality and that the two donors had provided their names and addresses. In fact, my predecessor, Morris Rosenberg, was sending letters in English and translated into Mandarin addressed to the donors in their personal capacity, to thank them.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
These were letters on behalf of the foundation, individually thanking these two private donors. That was my understanding.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes. One of the donors was part of this organization called the China Cultural Industry Association, which has ties to the Chinese government. I didn't know until the end of February 2023 that it wasn't the donors who were corresponding with the foundation, but this association. In all the emails I could find from the foundation going back to that time, when I was not in office, at no time did either of the two donors correspond with the foundation.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Who had the authority to sign this agreement and who had the responsibility to ensure that the names were actually those of the donors?
9:30 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
At the time, the foundation had a policy on accepting donations. This provided that for any gift of $1 million or less, the president, Morris Rosenberg at the time, had to sign the donation agreement. For a donation of more than $1 million, the board of directors had to pass a resolution.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
How is it that Mr. Alexandre Trudeau's name is in the agreement?
9:30 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I didn't know that, and I wasn't there at the time. In all honesty, I don't know that aspect of it. It would take a lot of research, but, yes, that was one of my questions from the beginning. Why was the signature not Morris Rosenberg's, especially since the receipts themselves were signed directly by him?
This is why donation policies ensure compliance. We have to accept a contract on behalf of the presidency. I used to sign all the contracts myself, and I was also the one who gave out tax receipts under my own signature. Otherwise, it can lead to...