Information & Ethics Committee on Sept. 18th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 79 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h), the committee is meeting for a briefing session with the Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and by using the Zoom application remotely.

I'd like to make a few comments, if I may, for the benefit of our witnesses and our members. We've been gone for the summer, so we need to recognize these few facts.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation, those on Zoom have a choice at the bottom of their screen of floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Although the room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. They can be extremely harmful to interpreters and can cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of the interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone into which their headset is plugged, and to avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function.

The committee clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for today.

From the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, we have Mr. Konrad von Finckenstein, interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, and Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, director, advisory and compliance.

Commissioner, you have five minutes to address the committee. Please go ahead.

Thank you.

[Konrad von Finckenstein, Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for having me today.

Let me begin by acknowledging that our meeting space is on the traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people.

I feel privileged to have been asked by the Governor in Council to take on this role on an interim basis while a new ethics commissioner is being sought. With me today, as you mentioned, is Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, director, advisory and compliance.

My office's annual reports on the Conflict of Interest Act and the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons were tabled in Parliament this afternoon. The reports outline how my office has carried out its mandate through major activities such as directives, advice, education, outreach, and enforcement.

I would like to thank the employees of the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner for continuing their work over the last six months in the absence of a commissioner.

Transparency, integrity and accountability are essential to the democratic process. The public needs to have faith in how decisions are made and implemented. For this reason, we have the Conflict of Interest Act and the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons. It is my intention to administer these regimes in an open and transparent manner, in a climate of collaboration and mutual respect.

I look forward to engaging in thoughtful, constructive dialogue given the critical role this committee plays in the overall process. I am committed to fostering an environment of openness and communication, as the exchange of ideas produces the best results.

The need for an ethics commissioner is multi-faceted. It extends beyond ensuring compliance and providing numbers. It also encompasses consideration of individual responsibility and ethical issues for individuals subject to the act or the code. The Ethics Commissioner acts as a moral compass by providing guidance on decisions that challenge ethics or integrity to ensure alignment with legal and societal standards.

In today's interconnected world, the actions of a public official have far-reaching consequences. Ethical missteps can lead to reputational damage, financial losses or legal repercussions. Regulatees can seek guidance from the commissioner on personal conflict of interest matters to prevent compromising objectivity when personal and professional interests intersect. Hopefully, by seeking counsel, public officials can make informed ethical choices that foster trust, public transparency and long-term success.

I will draw upon the expertise and the insights of my provincial and territorial counterparts who are already on the ground and who will certainly have useful insights and ideas. In fact, just after my appointment, I spent a couple of days at the annual meeting of the Canadian Conflict of Interest Network which allowed me to build valuable relationships and gain an insight into our common challenges.

In closing, I am eager to embark on this journey with all of you to serve Canadians and strengthen the foundations of our democracy. I am grateful for the opportunity to introduce myself today and look forward to further dialogue with you.

Thank you for your attention. I would be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Commissioner.

You're right on and just a bit under time. That will leave more time for questions.

We're going to start our six-minute rounds now. I'm going to go to Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner and Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, for joining us again. I appreciate the opportunity to ask questions and get more information on behalf of Canadians.

Commissioner, perhaps in your reading of the news over the last year prior to your accepting this appointment, or since your having assumed the office, you're familiar with the Prime Minister having spent New Year's at the Prospect Estate in Jamaica. This is owned by Peter Green's family. Mr. Green is the godson to the late Pierre Trudeau, father of the Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau. Mr. Green's son, Alexander, in turn recently made a large donation to the family foundation that of course shares the Prime Minister's name, in which he is involved.

The cost to Canadians was $160,000. They don't know if they paid for the $9,000-per-night fee that the Prime Minister would have incurred were he not there at the invitation of the donor to the Trudeau Foundation.

In relation to this trip, what we're looking to find out is who approved the trip from the Ethics Commissioner's office and on what date that approval was given to the Prime Minister or to his office.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Thank you for the question, and thank you for sending me in advance a letter of your concerns.

Let's start from the beginning. We don't approve travel. There is no provision in the act. We don't do that.

What we do is approve.... If somebody receives a gratuity or a gift, he or she can come to us and ask, “Is this okay or do I have conflict of interest?” We give them an answer. We do that on a confidential basis. It's up to the requester to decide whether he wants to make it public or not, etc. We do not comment on any of this.

In this case, all I can assure you—I assume; I wasn't here—is that often, with issues of this nature, a request would have been made and an answer would have been given.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you know, Commissioner, on what date that exchange was finalized? If you can't comment on the nature of the advice provided, do you know that it occurred?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

You are trying to put me in a very complicated position. I am not supposed to.... The advice is confidential. There's a flight that took place. I can only assume.... Let's not pussyfoot around here. Yes, I can tell you that advice was sought before he went on his trip and advice was given. If you want to know the nature of the advice, you have to ask him, not me.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Well, we'd be pleased to put questions to the Prime Minister if he'd come to committee, but we can't even get any of his caucus to be here.

How do you think that in relation to this type of trip, where we have $160,000 that taxpayers are on the hook for and we have this relationship of the Prime Minister's foundation with a donor giving a trip to the Prime Minister...? It has shades of “The Trudeau Report”, the first one, where your predecessor ruled on the Prime Minister's illegal vacation to Bells Cay. He was in violation of the act.

How can the act and the code be strengthened to prevent this type of ambiguity and these contraventions of the law that we've seen detailed in “The Trudeau Report”?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

First of all, you're making up certain stipulations here. You say $160,000. I don't know where that figure comes from, or what it's based on or anything, but to be more to the point, I don't have opinions. I deal with requests. I deal with requests of judgment. People come to me and I tell them whether they comply with the existing law or not. That's my function. My function is not to give opinions or to talk about how things look, but whether people have complied with the rules or not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is there a backlog of investigations in your office?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

At present, we have eight open cases, which involve 11 people.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Eight open cases, which involve 11 people—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I have to be careful when I say “cases”. It means that something has been referred to me to look at. It doesn't necessarily mean it will result in an investigation or something like that. That's eight cases where people have brought things to our attention, which we're looking at.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With a six-month appointment, how do you plan to address that backlog while also addressing any new matters that are referred to you or discovered by your office, in order to maintain the public's confidence that the act and the code are being complied with?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Look here: Just because there was no commissioner, that doesn't mean that work didn't go on. If something is referred to us, obviously we look at it. We do preliminaries, and then a decision is made on whether there should be an investigation or not. Once there is an investigation, obviously it becomes one.

The preliminary work has been done on these eight cases. Soon I will get a report from my people on what they recommend, and we'll decide whether to proceed, whether to dismiss them, etc. It's not a big backlog. It's perfectly handleable and we will do it.

The problem really arises because this act, in comparison to other acts, does not provide that in the absence of the commissioner, he may assign the deputy commissioner or some people to do something. There is nothing, and that's really the problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Typically, we would go to a Liberal member at this point, but we don't have any in the room.

Mr. Villemure, you have six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, thank you for being with us today. Ms. Robinson‑Dalpé, thank you as well.

We all found that it took a long time to appoint someone. I believe that, in the meantime, the people at the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner did their job putting together cases, because the investigations could only be concluded by a sitting commissioner. Is that correct?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

That's correct.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

When were you contacted about this position?

[Konrad von Fifornckenstein]

In April, I believe, I was asked whether I would be willing to accept a position like this. I said yes, but I was going on a cruise with my wife for 40 days, so I would be ready to discuss it when I got back.

We got back at the end of June. They called me to see if I was still willing to accept the position. I said yes, and I was appointed about a week later.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right.

When did your six-month appointment begin?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

It started on September 3.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

You were a judge and you were at the CRTC for many years. You have an impressive background.

What specific expertise do you have for being the Ethics Commissioner?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I have 39 years of experience in government. I've always worked for the government. I've been involved in the development, drafting, implementation and enforcement of legislation. Finally, as a judge, I've rendered decisions on laws that were overbroad and proposed corrections to laws containing errors. So I've been involved in all stages of the legislative process.

In addition, as a judge, naturally, in my judgments, I have examined legislation from both a legal and a practical standpoint. Laws must not only be adequate, they must also be enforceable and grounded in reality. I think that's a critical trait for this kind of position. You need to be able to understand the spirit of the law and, by issuing notices, ensure that it is enforceable in real life.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So it's a matter of understanding the law and the spirit of the law.