Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Let me ask you this last question, then. If I'm in Hamilton and someone sponsors me to travel to downtown Toronto to stay at the Fairmont—I'm at a conference at the Fairmont in Toronto—and we have an $800 bottle of champagne, is that sponsored travel?
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
As long as you go a few kilometres away, it is sponsored travel. There is no definition. Travel means you are not at your usual place of residence, period. If somebody pays for your trip to go there—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I think this is as startling to the Canadian public as it is to me.
Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate your time.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green, and thank you, Mr. Dion.
We're going to go to the second round, now, with five minutes for Mr. Kurek.
Go ahead, please.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much, Commissioner and Mr. Dion, former commissioner.
It's certainly been a very interesting conversation. We've talked a lot about trust and leadership. There have been some questions about the attitude coming from the top.
I'd ask both of you for your feedback on the implications of when violations of the code, as was mentioned.... In fact, Mr. Dion, you mentioned that there have been three Trudeau reports—not one, not two, but three reports. Is the implication that Canadians seem to see a Prime Minister continually—or in this case on at least three occasions—violating the conflict of interest code or being the subject of a pretty serious investigative process? The challenge is that it leads to Canadians' being unable to trust when it seems as though there are no consequences.
Mr. Dion, I'll start with you, and then I'd like feedback as well from Commissioner von Finckenstein.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I would point out that there are no immediate consequences. There could very well be consequences of another nature, basically. That's why, for the reports, we investigate; we come to a conclusion; we send the report to the Prime Minister, and we publish immediately after, so that the public can see the report for themselves—what the findings were, what happened, and so on and so forth. Then another process can take place, and it does—in the House of Commons or in the media, and so on and so forth. It's out of our court. The minute the commissioner tables a report, it's over.
The commissioner, for what it's worth, has come to a conclusion, as he is required to do under the act. Then, it's up to other people to pick it up from there.
Conservative
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think you're looking at it from slightly the wrong perspective. The whole system is set up on the basis of reputation. You have a reputation. You want to preserve it, etc. If you do something that is against the code and there's a report, it will be damaging to your core reputation. There is no question about it. It will be made public. You'll have to take the consequences. The voter has to take the consequences, whether he loses confidence in you and your government, or whatever. Our job is just to make sure that people abide by the code. When there is a violation or a failure, it is made public, so that the political process can create the consequences. It's not for us to create the consequences.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I appreciate that. Here's why I appreciate that feedback: It gets passed to Parliament, but when you have, for example, a governing party that seems to continually allow those within its leadership to flagrantly disregard ethics or, in the case of Speaker Fergus, to allow those who have been found to have violated the code to then get a pretty big promotion, with a chauffeur and a residence, I'm curious.
The question is for both of you. How do we reconcile this, when it seems that for those who are making the decisions, the naming and shaming seem not to be enough to help restore some of the trust that's been broken with Canadians when it comes to the ethics rules in this country?
Mr. Dion, I'll start with you.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I think my colleague has answered clearly. It affects your reputation. It follows you forever on Google. I would point out, although it's not my role, that Mr. Fergus was elected. He was not promoted by the Prime Minister.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Well...he was certainly elected, but it's funny that some of these conversations didn't happen.
The question is whether a change in government would help bring about an adjustment in that attitude and help restore trust in Canadians.
Commissioner von Finckenstein, just to clarify, you mentioned in your opening statement exemptions being granted to people subject to the act working between governments. Is that different government departments within the federal government? Is that different provincial, municipal governments? Is that a foreign...?
Can you outline that a bit?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's the federal government only. The situation right now is this: Let's say you worked for the Department of Transport, and you're an associate deputy minister. You leave, and you want to work for the Department of Agriculture as a consultant, or for a Crown corporation, etc. You have a two-year cooling-off period, and one year depending on your rank, and you have to come to me and ask if you can shorten that.
I don't see why. I don't see where the conflict is. I don't see where the ethical problem is. Whatever knowledge you have is government knowledge, and you take it from one end of the government to the other. Go ahead and do it. I don't want to see it.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, sir, and thank you, Mr. Kurek.
Mr. Bains, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.
October 16th, 2023 / 6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our two commissioners for joining us here today.
Mr. von Finckenstein, when you appeared before us last month you indicated that the backlog amount was trivial, and that you would ensure that it would be gone. I wanted to see where we're at now.
Can you please share an overview?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There's no backlog anymore.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's gone.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Congratulations. Thank you.
The annual report states that in 2022-23, the commissioner “continued to implement a three-year strategic plan covering...2021-2024”. The plan is not posted on the website.
What are the highlights of the plan that you can share?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Basically, the strategic plan outlined the goals of the organization over those five years, in terms of education, information and using the most up-to-date tools to be user friendly, for the people who use the system and also in terms of setting internal goals and outlines. It's so that you have service standards, so that things get done both in a proper fashion and in a proper time frame.
It's called a strategic plan, but it's really not so much strategic, because, after all, what we are charged with is administering the code and the law. It sets out how we want to do it and how we will do it most efficiently, being as user friendly and as unproblematic as possible.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Is it done in phases or processes that you've timed out—like this year and then the following year?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Certain things are ongoing. For instance, a perfect example is bringing in a new and better informatics system. First of all, we can't do it ourselves, because we're part of the House of Commons, so we have to work for them, etc. It has to be something that is compatible with their system. It has to be approved by them.
As you know, there are lots of stories of doing it wrong and disastrously, so we are trying to do it in phases. First of all, you have to test the system; then you make sure you educate your people, so they understand it and there's no human resistance to it. Then you do it in phases. If you do it all at once, you're guaranteed to have a breakdown of something. There are always some practical problems that have to be tested and wrinkles to be worked out before you go full-bore.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Then you mentioned training people, or retraining. Is that taking a little more—
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. Having seen introductions of new technology several times over my career, I think that's the most important part—training people so that they understand it, feel comfortable with it and can overcome the internal resistance that they'll have to change. They say, “I always did it this way. Why do I have to do that way?” Explain it, learn how to do it and see what the advantages are, etc.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Are you finding there's a culture change? Is that what you're pointing to?