Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Is there anything else you should teach us?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It's like a pigeon service.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's right. It's trick or treat.

I move:

That, the committee order Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada (ISED) to provide unredacted copies of Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton's “Fact-Finding Exercise Report” for Sustainable Development Technology Canada by 8 p.m. tonight, Monday Oct 30 in both official languages and that Doug McConnachie appear at committee for two hours on Wednesday November 1st to answer questions regarding the report.

I have paper copies, but I don't think that works because we have people joining virtually.

While it's being circulated, can I speak to it, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes. Apparently, the clerk has sent that to everyone already.

I'm going to remind you, Mr. Barrett, that the committee did agree to meet with a European Union delegation on ethics on Wednesday. I'm reminding you that it's already been planned. The delegation is coming to meet on an informal basis with the committee. Before you begin, I'm going to remind you of that.

[An hon. member]

Is the motion in order?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes, I'm going to rule that in order.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

This is all born out of the media reports about the $1-billion SDTC green fund, which has now been revealed, through whistle-blower accounts, to be the subject of gross mismanagement and conflicts of interest.

The committee adopted a motion on this very issue. You identified at the start of the meeting, Chair, that we didn't set a date by which ISED would provide the committee with the report in both official languages.

However, something interesting has happened. I've been made aware, through communication with the whistle-blower, that they have been in contact with representatives from every party in the House of Commons. They have furnished them with a report and have tried to further the awareness of parliamentarians with this information.

We need to get the report from ISED. We need to get it unredacted, we need to get it in French and in English, and we need to get it soon.

The situation persists. Once we call witnesses—including, if we have the willingness, the whistle-blower, who's been reported in multiple media outlets—to come to committee, I think the committee will find that an invitation will be well received.

We need this information. The information that's been made available to members of the committee speaks to Mr. McConnachie's relevance to this. Also, his roles as ADM and as a CFO, as they relates to ISED, are why he's important as a first witness. Now, should we have the opportunity to also hear from the minister when he's in country and get to that, I think it's essential that we have the minister come to committee. We're also going to need to hear from other people.

It would be great pre-work for the committee to be able to receive this report and have a positioning meeting on the reception of that report by the government, after it's been prepared, in advance of later hearings on this.

Chair, hearing your comments and hearing other members in the room express concern about the proposal for Wednesday, I'd like the committee to seek to find another slot where we could do that. I'd welcome amendments on that. In that case, it wouldn't displace meetings that are coming up.

This issue is incredibly important. It speaks to massive sums of taxpayer money that are alleged to be the subject of mismanagement. There are allegations of conflict of interest that include the board chair and the CEO. We need to find out what the government has found out. This report is not published on websites, but I understand that the media have it, too. It's being circulated to members of Parliament, but the standing committee hasn't seemed to be able to get its hands on it.

Let's set a timeline. Let's get it from them today. If it's being sent to media, I'm sure they can send it to the clerk of a standing committee of the House of Commons.

Let's hear from Mr. McConnachie on his knowledge of the goings-on that have been publicly reported and that have been the subject of the information that's been shared with MPs.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

I appreciate that, Mr. Barrett.

We have attempted several times to get the report, based on the original motion the committee passed several weeks ago. I think it was three weeks ago. I know there were concerted attempts last week by the clerk, on behalf of the committee, to try to get this report sent to us. We haven't received it.

As I said at the top of the meeting, I received it in my email. It was heavily redacted. There is no way I could share it with the committee because it was only in one language. I'm not even sure the report I got was accurate; I don't know. There has to be a sense of urgency on this. I can tell you that the information I've seen in the report could, and should, cause concern for members of the committee to deal with this issue as quickly as possible.

On the meeting with Mr. McConnachie, I would caution Mr. Barrett that, unless you want to have this meeting occur on the 6th, it may be awfully difficult for us to find another slot to have this meeting. If there was some direction to initiate this meeting on November 6, that would be helpful to me in organizing a meeting. In the meantime, Wednesday is set. I'm advised by the clerk that it may be difficult to find another slot. Obviously, the whips can work together, but it would be difficult. If we could look at November 6 as part of this, then I would appreciate that.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Chair, what I'd say to that is that if there is a willingness by this committee to turn this over to their whips, I think that would be very reasonable. If the time exists and the whips are willing to make it happen, then that's their role. If the time is not there and they're not able to furnish an agreed-upon time to the clerk, then we would look at the regular committee schedule.

For today, I don't think the substance of it needs to be, and I hope it's not, the subject of great debate. We already agreed to get the report. It was the suggestion of government members that we should be able to get the report, and I concur. It has already been prepared. Let's just get it in French and the official copy, and then we can move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

To that end, I would agree.

I have Ms. Damoff, Ms. Khalid and then, Mr. Green, I see your hand.

Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I would be curious to hear from the clerk what attempts have been made to get a copy of the report. Was there a timeline given on the requests to get the report?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's the issue we're dealing with: There is no timeline. Perhaps the clerk can advise us. There have been several attempts, not the least of which was the original motion.

Go ahead, Madam Clerk.

[The Clerk]

The clerk will not, on their own, decide on a deadline. The motion, and the amendment by Ms. Fortier when the motion was debated, was to ask for a copy, but there was no specific date. The clerk can only pass the motion over and say, “This was adopted, so we want a copy.” I cannot, on my own, say, “I need this today.”

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's fair.

From what I've heard.... Have you made multiple asks to get a copy of the report, or was there just the one ask for it?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I have asked the clerk several times to contact the department for the report. We have not received the report at this point.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

How many times has the department been contacted?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I would say there were at least three requests that I've made, Ms. Damoff, to have that report—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Could I just get the clerk to confirm, though?

Were there three requests made to the department for the report?

[The Clerk]

I can tell you that I sent the invitation unofficially, as in, “I'm sending an email soon. Just so you know, this was adopted, and it's coming”, so they knew already. Then, I sent a very official email. Then, as is always the case with officials from the department, we always do a lot of back-and-forth, and over the phone also. They said that they know the committee wants it, and the answer I get is, “It is forthcoming.”

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's fine.

I have a problem with Mr. Barrett's motion. I don't know if this report is translated. If he thinks that in three hours a report can be received, translated and distributed, that is extremely unrealistic. It would be fair, from the original motion that we passed, to put a timeline on receiving the report and getting it sent out to us. However, this is an issue with the way we passed the motion in the first place, so putting a timeline on it is fair enough, but we've already passed a motion to hear from the minister and to hear from—I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of the company that did it—Raymond Chabot.

I'm curious whether or not the clerk has invited the minister and what the response has been to that.

I don't disagree with the motion to get the report, but I think the timeline is just crazy.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Just for the sake of the committee, we can put a timeline on it. If the department comes back and says that in fact there is no translated document, then they can suggest a timeline in which they could translate it. I'm not sure what that would be, but we can make the request of the department. If the department comes back and says they don't have it in the two official languages, then they can tell us when they expect to have it translated. If they do have it in both official languages, then they can supply it when the deadline is indicated.

We can go to Mr. Barrett to provide some context. He said he has some context here that may help you out, Ms. Damoff.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The version of the report I have received in English is less than 30 pages, 27 pages, in terms of translating time. My understanding is that it is in the department's possession translated by the government, just for reference.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

I haven't seen the report, so I have no idea. I'm not quite sure how the chair.... It was sent to you, but I haven't seen it. I don't think any of my colleagues have seen it.

I appreciate the clarification, but I would be curious to hear from the clerk in terms of the invitations for the minister. Before we start hearing from ADMs, who I understand are the ones he's asking for now, I think we should be hearing from the report's author and the minister.

I would be curious where we stand. I did see your statement, Chair. I'd be curious to hear from the clerk when the minister was invited and where we stand with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I can answer that, if you'd like, because I directed the clerk to invite the minister. He was invited last week. My understanding is that he's out of the country, and he was unavailable this week to appear before the committee.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Was another invitation sent to him?