Evidence of meeting #93 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 93 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. I'll give just a reminder about the microphones.

There are just a couple of things.

The first is for Madam Clerk. We're going to get you to update us on where we are in the work plan for the TikTok study. We've had some witnesses who have actually not agreed to appear, which is a problem.

The second is that we've had an indication, based on the SNC-Lavalin motion that was passed, that the RCMP commissioner is making himself available, along with the staff sergeant, for December 11. We want to make sure that we're clear on that. Based on the work plan we have that was approved by the committee, we should finish this study by December 6. Given the fact that some of the witnesses are deciding to not appear, it should open things up for December 11.

Madam Clerk, if you want to give us an update on where we are with the committee....

I apologize to committee members. I know we previously cancelled a meeting. I needed this update just to bring you all in the loop and to talk about December 11 as well.

Madam Clerk, if you want to give us an update on where we are with witnesses, go ahead.

4:30 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Nancy Vohl

Certainly.

According to the plan distributed on November 7, witnesses were supposed to be invited to today's meeting. They were indeed invited. The Citizen Lab representative is in Taiwan and the time does not work for him unless the committee meets at a different time. The others wanted to appear, but wanted more notice to give them time to prepare. They asked for more time.

For November 27, I can confirm that Ms. Luelo will be here, as will someone from the RCMP.

The Canada Elections commissioner suggested that she not be invited, saying that the subject of the study is not really related to their work.

I was unable to reach the data protection commissioner for Ireland, despite sending emails to her. So I cannot confirm her presence.

For November 29, Google refused to send us any witnesses. In addition, I was unable to contact someone from Reddit. For the second hour, however, we did receive a confirmation from Leadership Lab, who will be sending two people. Further, Matt Malone confirmed his attendance, along with another person.

As to the witnesses who were invited to today's meeting and who asked for more time to prepare, I can invite them for December 4, if the committee so wishes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Okay. That's an update from the clerk.

Madam Clerk, again, provide an update on the RCMP commissioner and his correspondence, or the RCMP's correspondence, to the committee as far as his availability on the 11th is concerned.

4:35 p.m.

The Clerk

Yes.

This is for the other study. It's the RCMP study, regarding SNC-Lavalin. I was informed that the RCMP commissioner would not be available after December 11. He is available to appear and confirmed, unless the committee wants to modify the plan. He is confirmed to appear with the staff sergeant on December 11. If the committee changes the plan and does not have a meeting on December 11, he won't be able to meet with us until 2024.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Okay. Thank you, Madam Clerk.

That was an update on the work plan. I have Michael and then Ms. Fortier next.

On the update on the work plan, is there any discussion on the work plan itself?

Can we agree to having the RCMP commissioner come in on December 11? It's really the big one right now.

I don't see any objection.

Michael, do you have any comments?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Yes. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

With respect to the Sustainable Development Technology Canada study, we've had pretty serious developments over the last number of weeks. This, of course, is a question of a whistle-blower who has brought forward very serious allegations about the misappropriation of taxpayer money and about conflicts of interest at Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

We've heard some witness testimony. Following that witness testimony, we had the CEO of the organization resign and the chair of the organization resign. We've had an Auditor General investigation launched and an Ethics Commissioner investigation launched, and a member of the board, a further individual, has resigned.

It's incredibly important that we're able to shed light on this very serious matter, so I have a motion that I would like to move. I have it printed, but I believe the clerk should have just received it electronically. I dropped it in the mailbox for the interpretation folks. The motion is as follows:

That the committee invite the whistleblower—the individual who contacted the committee to identify wrongdoings at Sustainable Development Technology Canada—to provide their testimony, and that the committee make every accommodation necessary to facilitate the witness testimony in public before Friday, Dec. 1, 2023.

Mr. Chair, this is a very straightforward motion about an issue that is incredibly serious. The report from Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton that was commissioned after the whistle-blower brought these concerns forward to the Prime Minister's department, the PCO, identifies numerous issues that, although they didn't give rise to the minister or the government taking action and removing anyone from the board.... Even though we heard the CFO for the industry minister say that they didn't have confidence in the board and that people needed to be fired, nobody was fired. They were satisfied with this fact-finding exercise and said that they wanted the board to implement the recommendations.

This is unbelievable because it precipitated an investigation by the Auditor General. It rose to the level that the Auditor General would investigate but didn't seem to give enough concern to the minister that he would take action. A small sample of contracts were examined, and $40 million in misappropriated funds was identified, a sample of less than two dozen of hundreds—literally hundreds—of grants that had been given out.

With respect to conflicts of interest, we know, of course, that the Ethics Commissioner is now investigating, because we heard from the chair—the now former chair of the board—that she moved a motion at this board to give her own company more than $200,000 and then drew $120,000 from that company, but she said that there was no conflict of interest. It is unacceptable that we have a situation where we have a billion-dollar slush fund being raided by insiders and the well-connected, while we have people lined up in record numbers at food banks.

The information that we have so far is not because of the robust practices of this organization or the stewardship of the minister and his department. It's because whistle-blowers came forward.

They furnished the PCO, the Prime Minister's department, with a 300-page slide deck detailing all the problems—from human resources to funding being paid out that was not eligible based on the contribution agreement. Then we hear the minister didn't even look at the deck. It's incredible.

I want to lay out, from the RCGT report, some of the issues they found. I'll read from it directly. It says, “From March 20 to September 1, 2023, RCGT conducted a fact-finding exercise”.

That's the first place where I want to pause. This is what the minister described as a “forensic audit”, but it's not a forensic audit. RCGT's section 1.1 calls it a “fact-finding exercise”. There's a big difference between a fact-finding exercise and a forensic audit. That is, of course, why the Auditor General is going to look into this. It says, “there were sufficient facts to support a subsequent due process investigation of the allegations, as permitted under ISED authority granted by the contribution agreement between ISED and the Corporation.”

Some of the “Key Observations” in the report were, under “Conflict of Interest”, the board's “policy does not require board members and employees to declare conflicts with consultants, expert reviewers and other companies providing services.” This is basic stuff.

We heard from the board chair that she was selected because of her extensive experience leading organizations. Well, I have never been the CEO or COO of Home Depot, like the now former chair had in her experience, but it would be surprising to me to find out that the head of a corporation like that wouldn't have to declare conflicts of interest. This is basic stuff. The reassurance we got, of course, was her lawyer saying she didn't break any rules. At a very minimum, it's the appearance of a conflict of interest. People entrusted with taxpayers' money should be working to avoid that. When we have an actual conflict of interest and a motion being moved by an individual who will then financially benefit from the decision, and who sits at the table while all of her fellow board members vote on it...that's unbelievable.

One of the findings of this report is.... It's incredible. Of the items that aren't redacted, we can see that, when the board took these decisions, it didn't have debates that resulted in any kind of dissent, split vote or examples where there was a question—where some people agreed and some people wanted to abstain from this. Its decisions were unanimous every single time. When the board chair brought forward a motion that would give her company hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars, she knew it would get unanimous approval. She sat at the table, looked her colleagues in the eye, raised her hand and voted to give a couple of hundred thousand bucks to her company, and then directly drew out $120,000 from that company. If that's not a conflict of interest and corruption, nothing is.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Mr. Barrett, I have to stop you there. You're going to continue to have the floor.

The clerk and I have some questions with respect to the motion presented. We need some clarification on it. First of all, it was the decision of the committee....

Hang on for a second. I have to clarify something with the clerk.

I apologize, but, based on some of the issues that have been brought to my attention by the clerk, I'm going to have to suspend for a couple of minutes.

When we come back, you'll continue to have the floor, but there are some questions that need to be asked specifically about the motion itself.

I'm going to suspend for a couple of minutes, Mr. Barrett.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

We're back.

Mr. Barrett will continue to have the floor, but with respect to the motion itself, at some point....

First of all, I want to remind the committee that there had been some discussions in camera—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

There were decisions too. Is that right, Chair?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Yes. There were decisions in camera as well that we have to be mindful about not bringing up in public.

Secondly, I think the reference to “make every accommodation necessary” needs to be a little more specific, Mr. Barrett, so that we can give direction. If it's the will of the committee to approve the motion with its “make every accommodation necessary”, we have to define what those conditions are.

I want you to consider that as you deliberate on the motion itself. We'll need something very specific on that to guide the clerk on how to deal specifically with the whistle-blower appearing or not appearing before the committee. Is that clear?

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I have a point of order, Chair.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Just hang on, please, on the point of order.

I just want to make that very clear. There has to be some parameters. For example, are we going to summons him or her? We don't even know. What conditions will be imposed on that? I need some definition of that as well.

You still have the floor.

Ms. Fortier, go ahead on your point of order.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I challenge this conversation right now about a motion that is not duly presented. We also had, in camera, a direction that was very clear on another motion. I don't understand why we're having a debate on this current motion that is not....

I challenge this motion, Chair.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I appreciate your challenge on that.

Without getting into the specifics of the other motion that was presented, there was no clear definition on a date in that motion. There was no timeline on that motion. I clarified—

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

On a point of order, again, I challenge that. There was a timeline shared during that motion.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Let me go back to the motion. Please give me a second.

Thank you, Ms. Fortier. I am ruling the motion admissible. The difficulty I have, as you can appreciate, is that the language of the previous motion did not specify a timeline. In the absence of any timeline in that motion, this motion—which gives a specific date—is, in my opinion, admissible.

I've asked Mr. Barrett to clarify certain aspects of this motion. Again, we get into this difficulty when motions or amendments are presented on the fly, of what the interpretation is. Of course, it is subjective. Again, based on what was dealt with and not saying specifically what was in that motion.... There was no specific timeline associated with it. That is why I'm ruling this admissible.

Ms. Fortier, you're still on your point of order.

Mr. Barrett, you still have the floor.

Go ahead, Ms. Fortier.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Chair, respectfully, I am challenging your ruling that this motion is in order.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I have a point of order.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

It's a non-debatable...but go ahead, Mr. Kurek. I'm going to allow you on your point of order.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This appears to be a shameful effort by the Liberals to shut down a whistle-blower—

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

That's debate.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

—from coming to this committee. Mr. Chair, this is an unacceptable—

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

That's debate, Mr. Kurek. I appreciate that.

I have been challenged by Ms. Fortier on my ruling to allow Mr. Barrett's motion. That's a non-debatable thing. We have to call the vote.

(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 6; yeas 4)

Mr. Kurek, do you have something you want to say?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Chair, it is unbelievable that once again the Liberals have shamelessly attempted to silence, in this case, a whistle-blower, Chair, who has—

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Are you on a point of order? You're on debate right now.

Mr. Barrett still has the floor.

I'm sorry about that, Mr. Kurek. I thought you were on a point of order.

Mr. Barrett, go ahead, and then we have Ms. Fortier.