Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2025

[Jason Ward]

I think there's a moral obligation to show leadership in avoiding conflicts of interest or potential conflicts of interest and being clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Ward.

Thank you, Ms. Church.

We were a minute over on that one.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Conflict of Interest Act needs to be reviewed.

I completely disagree with Mrs. Church's analysis. I can see why that would irritate her. The leader of her party is alleged to have engaged in tax avoidance, a strategy that Brookfield is known to employ. Indirectly, we are asking ourselves the following question: Does the Conflict of Interest Act currently provide a robust enough framework for the public's trust in the institution? That's the first objective.

According to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, the review of the act must not be too heavy-handed, because we need people from the private sector to come serve as public office holders. We need their skills.

I think the person occupying the position of prime minister must be held to the highest possible standards of rectitude and transparency. Do you agree?

[Jason Ward]

I firmly agree with that statement, that there's a moral obligation to set a very high standard.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

However, the person currently in the position was the head of a company that is not at all transparent.

Do you agree?

[Jason Ward]

I agree with that statement.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay. We suddenly find ourselves having to trust an individual who ran a company that is not at all transparent and that engages in aggressive tax avoidance.

When he set out to become prime minister, he put his assets in a blind trust. Should that reassure us? Should we believe that the act as it stands is sufficient for people to regain confidence in democratic institutions? Given your experience in your field of expertise, do you think that should be good enough, as Mrs. Church suggests?

[Jason Ward]

I think that there's a serious credibility problem. I've heard comments from Prime Minister Carney in response to allegations of tax avoidance that really have not gotten to the core of the moral issues involved, in that there is an obligation to contribute to funding like ordinary Canadians in order to have the public services that everybody wants and that, in fact, businesses need in order to thrive in Canada. The public funding of infrastructure is absolutely essential for businesses, big and small, across Canada. I think it's a problem when the Prime Minister has led a company that is seriously engaged in aggressive tax avoidance in Canada and on its investments around the world.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I want to pick up on my earlier question, because this is something that has been bothering me from the start. We're not talking about a minister. It's important to understand that, while he may recuse himself, he's not just a minister or a private member; he's the Prime Minister, the one who sets the country's economic direction.

For example, Bill C‑5 which was passed on closure, states that Canada and the Canadian economy must be rebuilt. Coincidentally, that rebuilding is to occur in sectors in which Brookfield excels. Doesn't that appear to be a conflict of interest? Should we be concerned and put as many guardrails as possible in place to prevent the scenario I've described from playing out or to prevent people from believing it is playing out?

[Jason Ward]

Absolutely.

I think that the example that I began to speak about of Brookfield and Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, CDPQ, investing in a private hospital company in Australia is a lesson for Canadians to be careful in terms of private investment in infrastructure and public services because it often leads to a situation where there's profit extraction that harms tax payments that should be made. Also, generally, it is not contributing to a better service, a better society and the public services that people need.

I'm all in favour of robust and strong investments by funds in Canada to improve infrastructure and to improve services, but I think that has to be done with care and with a great amount of transparency, accountability and public oversight to ensure that benefits are widely received and are not lining the pockets of particular investors, Brookfield included.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

Thank you. We're over the five minutes.

Mr. Hardy, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Ward. I'm a new member of Parliament. I was elected very recently. Since my arrival, I've noticed that our laws are apparently meant to be used by the people in power, who too often interpret them in ways that give them all the rights.

Do you agree with that?

[Jason Ward]

I believe that a lot of the legislation has been written by corporate interests and is abused by corporate interests for their own personal, private gain.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Let's run with that. I think the general public is starting to lose trust in our institutions. This kind of behaviour only accelerates people's declining trust in our institutions. Politicians and leaders very often say that they have the right, that what they're doing is legal and that we shouldn't bother them with all this.

Do you agree with that?

[Jason Ward]

I completely agree.

I think there's an undermining of the faith of public institutions when wealthy individuals and large corporations play by their own set of rules that they, in fact, wrote, whereas ordinary citizens are held to a very different standard and don't have the “legal” rights to hire an accounting firm to set up a Swiss bank account and do other things that are available to wealthy individuals and the largest multinationals in the world.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Let's talk more about Brookfield. According to your document, Brookfield is one of the largest Canadian companies that has maintained a tax rate of less than 5% for 15 years. That's billions of dollars in lost revenue for Canada.

Given that this has been allowed to happen, do you think Canada's current legal structure is too permissive?

[Jason Ward]

I do think that the Canadian system needs to be tightened and that companies like Brookfield shouldn't be able to get away with low tax payments. Whether it's legal or not, having such low tax payments in Canada for such a sustained period of time should not be available.

That's a clear indication that there is a problem in Canada's tax system as well as in the global tax system that needs to be addressed and fixed. I think transparency is the first step. Transparency can then drive both public opinion and political reform.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

You'll see what I'm getting at.

The person who ran one of Canada's largest companies, who did everything he could to avoid paying taxes that would have benefited Canadians, became the Prime Minister of this country.

Do you believe that person should make the most of his position at this time by doing everything in his power to ensure that companies, multinationals and large corporations making untold billions of dollars give money back to the public? Do you think the current Prime Minister of Canada should do that? Do you think he will continue to stall the process?

[Jason Ward]

I think there's a golden opportunity for Prime Minister Mark Carney to change colours and really show that he can take leadership and that he can move legislation to increase transparency for multinational corporations and make the largest, wealthiest companies in the world pay their fair share of tax in Canada and around the world. There is an ability to change ways and to show leadership. I think that would go a long way to restoring faith in the Prime Minister and in the system in Canada.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Basically, as you say, Canada could take on a leadership role, and a person who does indeed have a lot of knowledge about economics and privatization, among other things, could send a strong signal to countries around the world that companies that make money from a country's citizens should participate in that country's economy. Do you believe that is his role as Prime Minister?

[Jason Ward]

Absolutely. I'll add to that. I think that Canada's backing down on the digital services tax in the face of threats from the Trump administration was a grave mistake. You cannot negotiate with a bully. I would strongly encourage Canada and other countries to move forward with the digital services tax in the absence of any possibility of moving forward at the OECD in terms of the reforms we're moving there.

It was a grave mistake for the G7 meeting in Canada to allow U.S. companies to avoid the global minimum tax as well. This is undermining the progress that has been made through multilateral negotiations over many years. Prime Minister Carney was the host of the G7 meeting that permitted U.S. multinationals, the most aggressive tax-dodging companies in the world, some of the largest companies, to continue to be outside a global minimum tax system.

There is a huge opportunity to show leadership. Canada can play a leading role in driving both domestic and international reforms to create a fair system where we have adequate funding for the public services and infrastructure everybody wants and needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Hardy.

We're going to go to Mr. Saini from the Liberal Party. He's going to be sharing his time with Mr. Sari.

Mr. Saini, you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Ward, I'm disappointed in the way you have been coming around.... You have been invited to deal with conflict of interest and the only subject you seem to pick is Prime Minister Carney and Brookfield. That was not your mandate and you had no duty to tell what the Prime Minister of Canada should be doing. He is the Prime Minister chosen by the people of Canada just recently and people had confidence in him to be elected to that power.

[Jason Ward]

I was invited to testify as an expert on the subject of tax havens. As I said in my opening remarks, I'm not an expert in Canada's conflict of interest law. I'm hoping that my knowledge of tax havens and tax avoidance is of benefit to the deliberations of the committee.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Ward, if you don't know what the conflicts of interest are then you shouldn't be interfering in the....

This is the legislation that was passed—