Evidence of meeting #10 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brookfield.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Ward, thank you for your testimony. Your opening remarks were delivered very quickly. It was quite a challenge for the interpreter to keep up with you. I will try to speak slowly.
From day one of this study, I've always started with two very theoretical questions. I don't have your expertise, but I have a different kind of expertise. Let's try to have a conversation that will combine your expertise and mine.
Tax avoidance may be legal, but do you think it is moral?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
I will try to slow my speech.
That's a fantastic question. I do not think it's moral. I think people have an obligation to contribute to society and the public services, and I think that even though it may technically be legal, the problem is that much of this law was written by corporate lobbyists and is not for the benefit of society. I think there's significant need for greater transparency and for reforms to close loopholes that were written into the law for the benefit of wealthy individuals and large multinational corporations that have undue influence over the tax system.
There's one important development to mention here. With the Trump administration in the United States, the ability to progress through multilateral processes has been severely gutted. I think that there's an emerging opportunity through the United Nations tax convention that is being developed now; an opportunity to take a fundamental look at how the global tax system has been misshaped for the benefit of a few and to the detriment of the people and the planet.
I think there are some golden and urgent opportunities for reform and I think there are also opportunities for Canada to take a leading role in pushing forward for greater transparency.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Before I go to my next question, I want to ask about the series of studies you referred to earlier. I know that we can look at them ourselves, but I would like those documents to be tabled so they go on the record as evidence in our study. Could you provide those to the committee? Thank you.
I'm trying to make the point that just because something is legal doesn't make it moral. I'm also trying to make the point that ethics is a higher standard than the law. Ethical standards need to be broader.
Given what you've told us about Brookfield, I'm more concerned than I was before we started this study. We find ourselves in a unique situation. The former head of that firm is now the Prime Minister. The act that we are now reviewing gives us very few tools to regulate conflict of interest or the appearance of conflict of interest, in part because we limit the notion of conflict of interest to the benefits that an individual might obtain. However, when the benefits are more general in scope, the public and the Ethics Commissioner say there's no problem, even if there may be a conflict of interest. Brookfield can make a lot of money, and the Prime Minister can grow Brookfield's assets even if he doesn't know how much his personal wealth is growing in his blind trust. What we have here is an individual who doesn't seem totally transparent and clear about the morals we've been talking about all this time.
I'll stop there. What are your thoughts on that?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
Yes, I completely agree.
First of all, I have supplied the clerk with links to the documents that I referenced, so hopefully those will be shared with you.
I do think that it's incredibly important for a leader to set a moral standard and that it's highly problematic that the company he chaired for many years was engaged in very aggressive tax avoidance, and continues to be, and is also investing in international assets that are privatizing infrastructure and not delivering services to people as was intended, as well as taking advantage of generous tax concessions that, in the case of Brazil, should be allowing more people to have access to basic sanitation, rather than lining investors' pockets from the proceeds that are partly derived from public subsidies to this industry.
I think there are serious moral questions there on the tax front and also on how profits are extracted in a private equity model that is all about short-term gains and leaves aside the question of societal impacts.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Mr. Thériault, as Mr. Ward just said, we have the links to the documents he's talking about. I have spoken with the clerk, and the documents will be sent to committee members once they've been translated.
Mr. Cooper, you are next, from the Conservative Party.
You have five minutes, sir. Go ahead, please.
October 22nd, 2025 / 4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Mr. Ward, Brookfield owns substantial investments in Canada and is the largest owner of commercial properties in major cities across Canada. Is that correct?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
That's correct, yes.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Okay.
Would it be fair to say that Brookfield has reaped very large profits from its investments in Canada?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
That would be correct, although, just in terms of the—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Okay.
While Brookfield has reaped large profits in Canada, it has paid relatively little in the way of Canadian taxes. Is that correct?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
Correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Help me understand how Brookfield avoids paying taxes in Canada.
As I understand it, Brookfield sets up a complex web of foreign subsidiaries in which investment funds ultimately end up in Bermuda, the Cayman Islands and other tax havens. Is that correct?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
Correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Okay.
That's precisely what Mark Carney did when he was the chair of Brookfield. When he set up the $15-billion global transition fund, he registered it in Bermuda. He registered the second $10-billion global transition fund in Bermuda, and there was the $5-billion catalytic transition fund—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
—which he registered in the Cayman Islands.
Do I have that right?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Hang on, Mr. Cooper.
Ms. Church has a point of order.
Go ahead.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Mr. Chair, I'm just wondering if we can ask you as the chair to please illuminate how this line of questioning is relevant to the study of this committee, which pertains to a review of the Conflict of Interest Act and not to either the tax dealings of any particular individual or tax law, frankly, generally.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I've been chairing this committee for almost three years now. I generally give a lot of latitude, as we do in the House, for members of the committee to use their time. I do expect Mr. Cooper, as a seasoned member of this committee, will come back and bring this back to where it needs to go. I would give as much latitude to you, Ms. Church, as I'm giving to Mr. Cooper right now.
On the same point of order, I have Mr. Barrett.
I've stopped the time, by the way.
Go ahead, Mr. Barrett. Don't engage in debate on this.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
It was about whether this pertains to the motion. I'm not sure, Chair, if perhaps you could read the motion or have Ms. Church read the motion back into the record.
“Tax havens” is specifically spelled out. “Carried interest payments” is very relevant to the application of the Conflict of Interest Act.
It's very clear to see where the line of questioning is leading, but it also speaks directly to the motion.
I appreciate your ruling with respect to latitude, but I don't think, respectfully, that any latitude is required. Mr. Cooper is engaged in a line of questioning that goes to the heart of the matter that we're studying, and that's why we have this expert here.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I appreciate that intervention, Mr. Barrett.
I'm not going to reread the motion. I think all of the members are clear on where this is going. We are studying the Conflict of Interest Act as it relates to designated public office holders. Perhaps the recommendations of the committee in the report will come from some of the responses that Mr. Ward gives to Mr. Cooper's questions.
Mr. Cooper, you have three minutes and 49 seconds to continue your questioning. Go ahead.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
To the witness, did I get that right with respect to Mark Carney setting up three major multi-billion dollar clean energy funds from Brookfield in tax havens, including Bermuda and the Cayman Islands?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
I can't speak to the specifics of those particular funds, but it would seem par for the course.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Okay.
Thank you very much.
On page 12 of your report, there is reference to Brookfield's tax gap over the last five years between 2017 and 2021.
Just so that I'm clear on what a tax gap means, it is measuring “the difference between taxes [actually] paid and what would have been paid if the statutory [Canadian tax rate had been] applied to profits” reaped. Do I have that right?
Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research
That is correct, sir.