Information &amp; Ethics Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2025

Liberal

Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

—not by a Liberal government, but by the Parliament of Canada.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Mr. Saini, I've stopped your time, sir.

I'm going to come to Mr. Ward's defence on this. He was invited on behalf of the committee. His name was submitted because, as he said, he is an expert in tax havens. His testimony, whether you agree with it or not, was asked for by the committee.

I don't think admonishing a witness, because he was invited by the committee, is something that I'm going to stand for, sir.

If you have questions with respect to what we're studying, I would invite you to go ahead, but admonishing a witness who was duly invited by this committee is not proper protocol.

Liberal

Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

At the same time, Mr. Chair, for a witness to go after the Prime Minister, of whom he has absolutely no knowledge, is not acceptable and I will not accept that.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

That's fine. I'm going to ask you to continue along the line of questioning or you could give your time to Mr. Sari.

Mr. Sari, you have three minutes and 45 seconds. I did stop the clock.

Go ahead, sir.

October 22nd, 2025 / 5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ward, thank you very much for being with us today. You've shared your expertise on tax avoidance, and we thank you for that.

I don't really want to challenge the points you made, because you seem to be an expert, and I'm grateful for the information you provided. However, for members of the public who are paying attention to our work, I would like to unpack a very important point that was raised in a previous question, and I would like you to clarify something.

When public servants place their assets in a blind trust, they can make a profit, since they have a certain amount of power and make some pretty important decisions. However, would you agree with me that they can also incur losses?

Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research

Absolutely. In a blind trust there could be profits and/or losses made.

Liberal

Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC

I really like the term you used: a blind trust. With a blind trust in place, how could anyone argue that there is a conflict of interest? I'm not talking about the appearance of a conflict of interest here.

As you've said several times, you're not an expert on conflict of interest.

Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research

To use Brookfield as an example, if there are shares in a blind trust, policies that benefit Brookfield, that encourage Brookfield, that reduce its tax liabilities and/or increase its opportunities to make profits.... There are still going to be benefits to that.

Liberal

Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you very much, sir. What you are saying here is really very interesting, because you're saying that it's hypothetical. Again, we're not talking about a conflict of interest; we're talking about the appearance of a conflict of interest. It's very important to emphasize that. Members of the public who are paying attention to our work really need to understand the vocabulary we're using, because you're putting forward hypotheticals.

I'm going to ask this question one more time, because you really look like a very important person. Would you please explain to me how you can establish a direct correlation between the fact that there is tax evasion and a conflict of interest? I don't really understand the connection. The purpose of this committee is to ensure transparency and public trust, as I have said repeatedly. We must not undermine that trust, and I would also note that the Prime Minister we are talking about here was chosen by the people.

Having said that, I always think back to something my father said. He said that wise men talk about ideas, not people. If we're talking about the idea itself, can you give us clear advice? I'm not talking about the appearance of a conflict of interest. I'm talking about tax avoidance in relation to the conflict of interest issue. Is there a correlation between the two? That's what I would like you to comment on. You are, after all, an expert in this field.

Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research

I think that aggressive tax avoidance undermines credibility in public institutions, and there is a correlation there. If a company or an individual can continually avoid its obligations to contribute back to the societies where profits have been generated, it does gravely undermine faith in public institutions. People making a living from labour—

Liberal

Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC

I would like us to be more proactive, so I'm asking for your advice. What legal aspects do we need to work on?

I didn't talk about people; I talked about ideas. Do you have anything to suggest? You started off saying that you don't know the Canadian system, but there are a lot of things you do know. Based on that knowledge, what do we need to change from a legal standpoint?

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I'm going to need a very quick response, Mr. Ward, if you don't mind.

Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research

Absolutely. I think the issue of a blind trust needs a serious review. I'll leave it at that.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Ward. I want to thank you for your testimony in front of the committee today. I appreciate you taking the time from Australia to share your experience and expertise with the committee.

An hon. member

What time is it in Australia now?

Principal Analyst, Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research

We're in the future. It's 8:30 a.m. on Thursday.