Evidence of meeting #11 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cooper.
A video is available from Parliament.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, I agree. It's up to you, the legislators, to find a balance.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I understand, but the laws already exist. My point is that the government doesn't want to attract bad actors, but it doesn't want to lose good ones either.
We're currently talking about a Prime Minister who holds an enormous amount of assets. He was required to set up a conflict of interest screen. However, it should be noted that 98% of businesses in Canada and 99% of businesses in Quebec are small or medium-sized businesses, or SMEs. I would say that entrepreneurs who own SMEs, like me, have a lot to contribute to political life.
In the very exceptional case that we're discussing, given the statistics I've just shared, do you agree with me that special attention should be given to individuals who are part of that 1% and who run for political office, to ensure that the system can properly accommodate them?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, I don't. With all due respect, I think that people from SMEs can also put pressure on decision-makers. Those people may also be interested in government procurement, contributions and the small details of regulations.
I don't think it's really possible to make that distinction in practice.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I'm going to go back to what you said earlier, that careers in politics are short.
You said that a person who enters politics never knows if they'll still be there in a year, in four years, in two years or in six months. Despite your many years here in Parliament, you seem to be saying that people in politics know very well that they're there only momentarily.
Is that what you said?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, and it's up to the voters to decide the length of a career.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
From a human standpoint, I think it would be normal for someone who has been in business all their life and who enters politics with the best of intentions to always be aware that they'll very quickly go back to what they were doing before, even if that person wants to stay in politics for a long time.
Isn't that right?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't know the numbers, but there's a distribution of people. It depends on the pace of the elections. We may have an election soon.
Some members stay in politics for a long time, sometimes 10 or 15 years.
That said, people in the political science field tell me that there really are currently barriers to incentivizing and encouraging people to enter politics.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You said at the outset that, in any case, politics is very temporary. I think it's normal for a person to plan their career afterward, or at least think about it.
Having said that, you were the Clerk of the Privy Council, which is actually the most senior public servant in the country. We agree that this person is indeed appointed by the Prime Minister.
Right?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, as is the case for all deputy ministers and all Governor in Council appointees.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
We agree that a person appointed by the Prime Minister, someone the Prime Minister trusts, will be responsible, as in this case, for the conflict of interest screen for the 103 files related to potential conflicts of interest.
We're told that an entire team is working on it. That means the Prime Minister appoints someone he trusts, someone he's close to, and he entrusts them with the responsibility of managing his assets, knowing full well, as we've said, that he has to think about what he's going to do in one, two or four years.
Are we in a situation where the public might have doubts about that structure?
Could we possibly require that a third person, someone outside that relationship, be responsible for ensuring that the public is never cheated and that the current Prime Minister doesn't think about his post-politics career path while acting in office with public money?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think that third person is the Commissioner.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You're talking about the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. Before talking about the Commissioner, perhaps you could help me understand the mechanism that's in place a bit better.
My understanding is that the chief of staff—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Mr. Hardy, I'm sorry to interrupt, but your time is up.
You'll be able to ask more questions later, since there's another round of five-minute questions left.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Ms. Church, are you up?
You have five minutes. Go ahead, please.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Hello, Mr. Wernick. Thank you for appearing before the committee today.
My first question for you really goes to your experience as a very long-serving and distinguished member of the public service.
The committee has been diving into this issue here for a number of weeks. I think one of the questions that have come up fairly frequently, particularly from my friends across the way, has been around the question of the impartiality or non-partisan ethics of the public service, particularly when a conflict of interest screen is in place and managed either in whole or in part by a deputy head, a deputy minister or the Clerk of the Privy Council.
My question for you would be this: Just as a starting point, what sort of guidance, training, or ethical code or oaths are you privy to as a senior member of the public service that would guide how you would look at a situation in which you were responsible for being part of managing a screen, for example?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm not going to be exhaustive, but you have all of the training that goes into all the jobs you had before you were promoted to that level and all the cases that you would have dealt with.
There is a guidebook, which you're familiar with, called “Open and Accountable Government”. That was first made transparent by Prime Minister Harper and has been made transparent by prime ministers since. There's a fairly detailed infrastructure of training for senior officials and deputy ministers in specific issues. In most big departments, you have a legal services shop, and you have people you can lean on for advice on specific issues.
In the Privy Council Office, which is sort of the secretariat for the cabinet and its committees, there are people in the legal shop and in the cabinet operation shop who are very well trained and familiar with the case law, the practices and the examples that have come up. You do end up leaning on them for advice.
I can assure Canadians that it is a responsibility that's taken very seriously. It is part of the role of the secretary to the cabinet, an office that has existed for centuries. I'm not sure that there's any other way to do it.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Practically speaking, how would a clerk or a deputy minister give effect to a conflict of interest screen? What procedures have you either implemented or seen implemented around you to make those screens effective?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Overwhelmingly, the business of cabinet comes in as proposals from ministers, so you have to start in the ministers' offices of people who are making pitches to cabinet through cabinet documents and papers. They should be attuned to flagging and identifying any potential conflict issues if the minister has screens. Then, on the receptor side, at the Privy Council Office and in its various teams, there might be 200 or 300 items that come in a year. If you know what the screens are, you can simply look for them. If it's a shipbuilding case and you own Canada Steamship Lines, it's pretty obvious. It's those sorts of things.
I think it does get into the area of how clear it is, as opposed to a perceived conflict in which there might be some second- or third-order effect, but you have people who are trained and expert in these issues and have accumulated experience in exercising this function. Sometimes you would recommend, okay, I think the minister here should go and talk to the commissioner.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
There's a notice of screen, presumably, that is circulated at times as well, to inform people in and around the department about a screen?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
My recollection is that people are aware of what the specific screening items are, and they're able to create kind of a radar system for them. I don't know how it's implemented these days.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Let me ask you something on a different note.
You mentioned that there are many tools in the tool kit here. Is there any merit, in your mind, to bringing the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons to the same standards as those of a public office holder under the act?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think that's a judgment you'll have to make. You certainly have an influence. You're one Canadian in a million who actually gets to write laws, so you do have an enormous amount of power. I actually think it probably is the Lobbying Act that needs to be upgraded, because there's a lot of lobbying of MPs and senators that's not caught.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Church.
Mr. Barrett, go ahead, please, for five minutes.