Evidence of meeting #11 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cooper.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Did the Prime Minister ever have to leave the meeting room during your tenure? If so, how many times did it happen?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't know. That was 10 years ago.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, I don't.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
It's pretty important, though. The Prime Minister leaves a room because he can't make the decision. It seems to me a person ought to remember that.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, I don't. I'm sorry.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Thériault.
We're going to go on to our second round now.
Go ahead, Mr. Cooper, for five minutes.
October 27th, 2025 / 11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wernick, I want to ask you a few questions about the Prime Minister's ethics screen. Would you agree, in terms of seeing that it is triggered, that it requires an exercise in judgment that is subjective by those who are responsible for administering the screen?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm not sure I understand your question. The onus is on a public office holder to provide information to the commissioner. It happens all the time.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
No, I'm asking you.... You spoke earlier about perceived conflicts of interest, and you specifically said that it requires an exercise in judgment on a subjective matter. Now, we have the Prime Minister's ethics screen, which states that Mr. Carney may participate in discussions and make decisions affecting 103 companies on matters that affect the companies' interest as a member of a broad class of persons, unless those interests are disproportionate to other members of the class. I would note that this language of having a disproportionate interest doesn't come from the Conflict of Interest Act. It's a subjective question. It's a subjective test, isn't it?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, and I'm totally comfortable that it's a job that Parliament assigns to the commissioner.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Parliament did not assign that language. That was something that—
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, but they—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
—was incorporated into the screen, and I would note that this language.... Have you seen this language in an ethics screen before, that specific language of a disproportionality test?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think Parliament has given the commissioner the mandate to make these judgments about the appropriate arrangement.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
I understand that we have an ethics screen in place. I understand the process that led to the ethics screen. I just asked you a very straightforward question. It should be obvious that, yes, it is a subjective test. Yes, it is a subjective standard. I find it really astounding that you can't even answer that, and it really raises a question in my mind as to whether you're coming here in good faith to answer questions.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm here in good faith, Mr. Cooper.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Now, I will ask you this, and I hope you'll agree with this. When we're talking about the Prime Minister's ethics screen, it's extensive. It's unprecedented. It concerns 103 different companies, 103 different conflicts of interest, 103 ethics screens. Is that right?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm sorry, but what's the question?
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
It's pretty extensive, isn't it? It's unprecedented.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, it's the most extensive private sector record since Paul Martin's.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Well, thank you for providing, for the first time, a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
Given the fact that it is an extensive ethics screen—unprecedented, as you've conceded—Canadians have serious concerns about, frankly, the lack of transparency around it to see that it is triggered when it ought to be triggered.
You served as the clerk of the Privy Council. As clerk of the Privy Council. you were pretty busy on a day-to-day basis, were you not?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Can you explain to me how it is that this is being left to the Clerk of the Privy Council and the Prime Minister's chief of staff to administer? How can Canadians have confidence that the screen is being triggered appropriately? Would you agree that there is a legitimate basis for some concern in that regard?
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, if the committee wants to recommend disclosure of all the instances when the screen was invoked, go for it.