Evidence of meeting #22 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brookfield.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Of course, we looked at these companies to make sure we know what their interest is. Most of them, as Mr. Beber said, are de minimis, but any kind of deferred compensations that you—
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you.
I'm going to have to cut it off there.
Mr. Saini, you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Good morning, and thank you for coming.
Mr. Cooper has made statements that are contrary to what Mr. Beber said. Mr. Beber said that yes, they may own 2,000 companies, but only 105 of them are directly related to the conflict that could occur, so for Mr. Cooper to continue repeating something that he was told is not correct.
It's not only that: The other 1,900 companies are not even in Canada. They are all over the world. They are limited partnerships that own their own assets and do their own thing.
I would like to hear your comments on that.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, what you said is absolutely correct. What is listed here, as he said, are the companies in which he had a management position or an oversight role. They are listed there.
The first five are the key. Everything after those five is really part of the Brookfield global transition fund, and then in B and C are those that we came up with by looking at the lobbyist registration and by looking at the web and seeing what Brookfield owns, but all of these are minimally invested. Some of them may operate in Canada and some of them may not.
The first five companies in annex A are the key. What follows underneath is really an elaboration of the Brookfield global transition fund. Whether they operate in Canada or somewhere else, they are limited partners, as you suggested. There may be small interests or there may be some tie-up, etc., but this is not something that's going to have any impact in terms of conflict of interest. He has, out of an abundance of caution, disclosed as much as he can and as much as he knows, and he put it in the annex.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
The duty of this committee was to bring some changes if we felt they were needed, but in my opinion, looking at the Prime Minister's conflict of interest has become the main thing, rather than looking at the broad aspect of what we can do for Canadians. That is very shocking.
We have heard testimony from quite a few witnesses that Canadian ethics laws are some of the best, that they're gold-plated. Even the appeals court has said that this is working very well.
I'd like to hear your viewpoint on that.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're absolutely right. We are considered the gold standard in terms of conflict of interest for the way we handle it, the way we insist on disclosures, the way we verify and the way we make public any breaches of the COIA.
The reason I put five changes in my annual report is just to make the act a little bit smoother and easier to administer. For instance, exchange-traded funds are controlled assets, and somebody who's appointed or elected, like you, is not allowed to own them. Why not? How can you influence anything by owning exchange-traded funds? They are, in effect, the same as mutual funds in terms of their effect, but at the time the act was drafted, there were no exchange-traded funds, so that's why they're not listed there.
Another one is, for instance, that you may not be employed or do anything outside of your job. There are a lot of people who want to teach, even pro bono, at the university or share their opinions, etc., but they can't do that, because in order to be a teacher at the university, the union insists you be employed by the university and then you're employed and you can't do it.
Why not give me the discretion to ask, “Is it relevant or not?” If it's not, but it benefits the public, like my teaching example, by all means, go ahead. This is the sort of thing we should be doing here: trying to make the act a little bit easier to use, both for the users and for me as an administrator, because you want to be able to attract good people into the public service and to minimize the conflict of interest if it's irrelevant.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
You stated in your opening remarks that you are recommending six changes. Are you also suggesting any legislative changes? If so, could you give us an opinion or give us your remarks?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Those changes I suggested require legislation, and I actually put the proposed changes to the act in my annual report.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for five minutes.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Commissioner, during your testimony before the committee in September, you said:
We want to avoid a situation where he would make a decision knowing that it would increase the value of one of the companies he divested. For that reason, we set up this screen. The chief of staff and the Clerk of the Privy Council have to review every decision that the Prime Minister has to make and determine whether it will have an impact on a particular company.
Moments later, you said:
…if the decision is a general one that doesn't affect a specific company, he isn't required to recuse himself.
When I analyzed the assessment tool for applying the Prime Minister's conflict of interest screen, I realized that there were shortcomings in how Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard applied the screen. For example, in Bill C‑15, which seeks to implement the budget tabled in the House this fall, a clean technology tax credit was added that didn't exist for small nuclear power plants. Another clean energy tax credit was also created, for which nuclear energy property was eligible.
Now, page 3 of the assessment tool says that care must be taken with Westinghouse, which belongs to Brookfield. However, Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard told me that they hadn't applied the screen, because it was a general decision.
On page 5, the assessment tool defines “general application” as follows:
If the decision or discussion applies to an undetermined group of people or companies, then the matter is of general application.
There are only five actors that can commercialize nuclear power plants right now. That isn't an undetermined number. I have even named them before.
On page 6, when it comes to the notion of a broad class of people or entities, the assessment tool states the following:
If the decision or discussion applies to a small group, then the matter does not apply to a broad class.
However, they didn't apply the screen.
Should Mr. Carney recuse himself from the vote on Bill C‑15?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Mr. Aquilino, do you want to answer the question?
Michael Aquilino Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
My understanding of the tax credit is that it applies to taxpayers, not directly to nuclear plants.
I listened to Mr. Sabia's testimony. If he's correct, it would be a general application decision.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Mr. Sabia is wrong. We have created an entirely new tax credit for small nuclear plants. We also created a clean energy tax credit, which didn't previously apply to nuclear power plants.
We aren't talking about a small, undetermined group here, but a very specific group, which includes only five players, including Brookfield, which owns Westinghouse.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There are only five companies.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Yes, there are only five companies that can market nuclear power plants at the moment.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Are those five companies located in Canada or elsewhere in the world?
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
There are some elsewhere in the world, yes. There are American companies, but there are also companies all over the place. I can name them for you if you like.
I think the screen should have been applied to Mr. Carney, because he's directly linked to his interests in a blind trust. You said it yourself. The screen is applied in such a way that he can't be involved in those decisions. We're talking about the budget implementation bill here.
Would it not then be prudent for Mr. Carney to recuse himself from the vote on Bill C‑15?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're referring to a lot of facts about the nuclear industry and small reactors, among other things.
I'm not in a position to answer you right now, but, if you want, you can send me your question in writing, and I'll give you an answer.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Please, out of respect for the interpreters, don't speak over each other.
Conservative
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
If Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard are always in contact with you, how is it that they didn't check with you whether Mr. Carney should recuse himself in this specific case?
They would then have been somewhat lax in their ability to be accountable or to seek your advice.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
May I answer?
