Evidence of meeting #22 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brookfield.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First, you said that we were involved in the analysis. That isn't exactly the case. We give advice, and they then do the analysis and make decisions. Our role is to help them do their job, not to make decisions for them.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
How often do they communicate with you? They said that they were in constant contact with you and that, as a result, they didn't have to report to your office.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
They decide how many times they have to consult with us.
Ms. Robinson‑Dalpé leads the section that's responsible for those consultations. She could tell you a bit about how it works.
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As the Commissioner said, the Office of the Commissioner has been asked to give advice on specific situations on a number of occasions.
Like any other public office holder who has a conflict of interest screen, we consult the Commissioner's office for the administration of the screen. As for the exact frequency of those consultations, I can't specify, but it happens regularly.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
It's frequent enough that they don't have to report back. That's what we're to understand.
As part of administering the assessment tool for applying the Prime Minister's conflict of interest screen, you have such frequent exchanges that accountability is unnecessary. You're aware of everything Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard are doing as they make decisions about applying the screen.
Is that what we're to understand?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I can say that we're aware of the situation in the vast majority of cases.
Bloc
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I can't say that we approve of what they're doing. As the Commissioner said, we give them advice on the situation. We provide them with details or additional pieces of information. However, they're the ones who ultimately make the decisions on applying the screen.
It's ultimately up to the public office holder to recuse themselves if something is put forward by the screen administrator.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Yes, we know that.
However, for them, administering the screen is so complex and complicated that they need the Commissioner's office to guide them.
Wouldn't it be simpler for the screen to be applied by a completely independent person?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Unfortunately, at the Commissioner's office, we don't have people in every organization who can help us manage conflict of interest screens.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
We aren't talking about just any public office holder. We're talking about the Prime Minister of Canada, who makes laws. As the Commissioner said earlier, there also wouldn't have been a screen if there hadn't been an apparent conflict of interest in relation to his blind trust.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Your time is up, Mr. Thériault.
Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes in the second round.
Go ahead, sir.
December 8th, 2025 / 11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, Commissioner, and welcome to your team.
Mark Carney's ethics screen that you set up lists 103 companies, almost all of which are Brookfield companies. The chief operating officer of Brookfield, Justin Beber, told this committee that Brookfield owns 2,000 companies and businesses.
Do you have a full and comprehensive list of all of Brookfield's companies and businesses?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We have a list of what the Prime Minister and his lawyers furnished us, and it is attached in annex A to the screen.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
You do not have a full list of the 2,000 Brookfield companies.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Okay.
Mark Carney holds stock options and deferred share units in Brookfield potentially worth tens of millions of dollars. The chief operating officer at Brookfield said that in respect of Carney's stock options and deferred share units: “As the value of Brookfield increases, the value of those instruments increase.”
Accordingly, it follows that as Brookfield-owned companies do well, Brookfield does well and, by extension, Mark Carney does well.
If you don't have a full list of the companies, I would put it to you that you are missing potentially a whole long list of conflicts of interest or potential conflicts of interest that Mr. Carney has with Brookfield companies.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Annex A to the screen lists the first five companies, which are really the ones that own all sorts of others, the rest of those companies, directly or indirectly, which are dealing with those.
It is clear that Mr. Carney's future compensation is tied to the success of Brookfield, but in order to avoid that he makes decisions which can be seen to benefit Brookfield and therefore indirectly himself, he firstly has put everything in a blind trust. Secondly, he has set up a screen to make any decisions that he makes regarding the five key holding companies or the ones that he knows about—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Commissioner, I think you said it exactly right: That is, Mr. Carney's portfolio is tied to Brookfield. When Brookfield does well, so does Mark Carney, yet 95% of Brookfield companies are not subject to the screen. How do you explain that?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't know where you get this 95%. What you have before you is his statement saying that these are the companies that he knows about, and then the entities that appear in the lobbyist registry and the entities that were defined by our office. That's essentially the universe we know about.
As he himself says in annex A, in item C, “I had no role in managing them, and no direct financial interest in them.” Now you're saying he has a financial interest. I don't know how you.... Are you contradicting the statement made in annex A?
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
I'm simply referencing what Mr. Beber said.
Mr. Carney has stock options and deferred share units. I know that we saw a letter from Brookfield today that merely dismisses these companies as de minimis. Are you just taking Mark Carney and Brookfield at their word? Have you sought further information?
Given Mr. Beber's testimony that there are 1,900 other companies, are you going to go back to Mr. Carney and go back to Brookfield and say, “Provide us with a list of those companies to determine whether or not additional companies should be added to the screen”?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Lyne, do you want to answer that?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Essentially, the screen is a preventive measure. It's there to anticipate conflicts of interest; it's not there for the Prime Minister to avoid conflicts of interest.
For all intents and purposes, if a matter is brought to the Prime Minister's attention and the Prime Minister is aware that it would further the private interests of Brookfield, then he would have to recuse, even if the screen did not capture that item because it's not on the annex that—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
I understand how the screen works. I'm just asking if you will undertake to get a list of those companies or if you are intending to, in light of Mr. Beber's testimony. That was my question.