Evidence of meeting #22 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brookfield.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I can't answer your question. My team will review the situation and present the facts. They aren't going to be isolated in the way that you're doing. Based on that presentation of facts, I'll make the decision.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you.
In your view, what I'm telling you is an interpretation of the facts, not the facts, then.
Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard told us that they called you on a regular basis.
The first time you appeared, you said you didn't want to be judge and jury. That meant you didn't want to regularly take a position on the application of this formula to ensure that there were no missteps.
However, at what point are you really part of the process, since they tell us that they call you every day?
Do things potentially happen every day? Both witnesses told us that independently.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Okay. They said that. That's up to them.
The only thing I can tell you is that I'll respond to their request. If they call me, I'll give them my opinion.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
If they call you every day, it means that a lot of things are happening every day.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As you know, we have employees who are assigned to each elected or appointed person. An employee of the Prime Minister's Office speaks with the person I have designated to be responsible for the Prime Minister.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As for your question about how many times they call me, it's up to them to tell you, not me.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Hardy and Commissioner.
Mr. Saini, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
I want to go back to Mr. Cooper's statement that Justin Beber met with the Prime Minister. The statement he made to this committee was that since the Prime Minister became Prime Minister, there has been absolutely no communication between Brookfield and the Prime Minister.
Yes, Justin Beber met him as a private citizen in his office once. Is there anything wrong with that? He stated that since the Prime Minister became Prime Minister, there has been absolutely no communication between the Prime Minister and Brookfield.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As Mr. Beber said, he was there not as representative of Brookfield, but in a personal capacity to speak about anti-Semitism. That's obviously his right, and he can do that.
It's unfortunate that it was done with just the two of them in the office of the Prime Minister. I think it would have been better if they had met as a group to talk with the Prime Minister so that one couldn't make the inference that some people are making, which is that this was contact by Brookfield.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
When the Prime Minister ran to be the leader of the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister, the country knew who he was. They knew that he was the chairman of the Brookfield Corporation. They still voted for him and elected him.
Do you want a country where a successful person should be excluded because they are successful in their private businesses? My friend on the other side seemed to imply that. They want us to go through that process where only people who have done absolutely nothing should be the leader and the Prime Minister of the country.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The act specifies, “The purpose of this Act is to establish clear conflict of interest and...minimize the possibility...and...provide the Conflict of Interest...Commissioner with the mandate”, and it says, “encourage experienced and competent persons to seek and accept public office; and...facilitate interchange between the private and public sector.”
It's specifically set out in the law, which means to make sure that the most talented and able people can come into the public service, in and out, without conflict of interest, or if there is a conflict, we'll manage it.
I see that as my mandate. Therefore, the fact that the Prime Minister was a very successful businessman, a former international banker, a former governor of the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England, those are positives. That's a competent person. That's what I'm supposed to make sure of. I also have to make sure that he has no conflict.
Therefore, the more experienced and the more talented somebody is, the more difficult it becomes to apply the act. That doesn't mean we won't do it or that we discourage good people from entering. It's just the opposite. We want the best people to enter the public service.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
During the appearance before the ethics committee, the Quebec ethics commissioner, Ariane Mignolet, made the following statement:
As a society, we have chosen to give commissioners the responsibility of ensuring that public office holders and members conduct themselves in an ethical and professional manner. We must trust them and give them the flexibility they need to carry out their duties independently and impartially, taking into account the circumstances of each situation.
Do you agree or disagree with the commissioner from Quebec?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I fully agree with what she said.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Can you describe how your office ensures uniformity in decision-making so that all parliamentarians are treated fairly and consistently?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Lyne, that's up to you.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
My team is responsible for providing guidance to all parliamentarians and public officials. We have an internal practice manual. I have 10 advisers who provide guidance to all these people, consistently. With those rules written there, which have been sanctioned by the commissioner, they provide guidance based on that.
Conservative
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you very much.
Commissioner, let me summarize our previous discussion.
What I understand is that, if your suggestion to include apparent conflicts of interest is introduced into the act, you will have an additional tool to initiate a discussion with people who find themselves in that situation. You don't currently have that tool, so your work is somewhat limited.
Are you satisfied with that summary?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I agree.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Okay.
I really liked the answer that the ethics commissioner of Quebec gave me when I asked her whether a public office holder should be empowered to participate in a decision-making process of general application. Those decisions could indeed have an effect on their assets or on the assets of a former company.
She told me that the important thing was really to ensure that personal interests didn't compromise independent judgment. The issue isn't whether a law or a measure applies to a broad class of people, but whether the independence of judgment of the person adopting it can be influenced.
Do you agree with that?