Evidence of meeting #28 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
That's a very important question. How much time do I have left to answer?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll be quick.
There are investments in technology. We've talked about that. There are investments in information management. At the end of the day, that's where the real problems lie. Including a duty to document in the act might make it possible to set up a system to keep departments up to date on their information management.
I just want to mention that I do indeed have concerns about the cost-cutting exercise we are going through. I sent an email to all deputy ministers in the government last August to remind them, as the Information Commissioner did, that access to information is still a fundamental right, and so we should be very careful about budget cuts for access to information offices.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay, thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Thériault.
We're going to start with Mr. Hardy, and then go to Mr. Saini.
Mr. Hardy, you have five minutes.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Rochon, I think you were right when you said that access to information is essential to public trust in our institutions. It has to be well managed. It has to be accessible. The Prime Minister talked about it during his election campaign. You said that at the outset. In fact, everyone who comes here tells us about transparency and proactivity.
What strikes me is that the commissioner in charge of this, since it is her job, tells us that she is seeing a decline and that her office is no longer fulfilling its role because it is up against too much bureaucracy. What's more, we read in a letter that you want to double-check her work, but we see that it's because you consider some orders abusive.
If this is so important, I'm just trying to figure out why you shouldn't rely on this person the most and ask what kind of help she needs, since she's obviously the person defending access to information.
Why does she feel like she is constantly up against the bureaucracy? Here, you say that you respect her and that you meet with her, but she came here to tell us that she doesn't have enough funding and that she's up against the bureaucracy. Who doesn't understand how to have a dialogue?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
You said a number of things.
It seems to me that she did not say that she lacked money. I think she just said that there was a lack of money for departments. That's a very important issue.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I asked her very specifically if she felt that her office was underfunded, and she said yes.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Okay. Maybe I'm mistaken.
That said, at the end of the day, I am not responsible for its funding. She told you that, but I don't know what more funding would ultimately lead to.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
That's not the point I wanted to raise. I want to know why we feel here that it's as if everyone always acts in good faith and says that the other person should obviously get so much more, that they need it. However, when we spoke to the commissioner, she told us that she was up against the bureaucracy, that she sometimes had to go to court and make recommendations and that she brought orders.
In your documents, you say that the order-making power may be reviewed, because you find it perhaps a bit abusive. Here, however, you're telling us that no, you don't want to take powers away from her.
I'm just trying to understand, because I feel like what she does is critical.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
What I can tell you is that we will begin the review of the act. We're going to have that debate during consultations, and of course we're going to come back to this committee to have a debate. At the end of the day, we're looking at improving the efficiency of the system so that it works for everyone. That is an objective we share with the commissioner and this committee.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I just saw some information that I hadn't read regarding what we were talking about earlier. That's my fault. I just want to tell you that it clearly states here that the commissioner asked for an extra $700,000 and that Treasury Board said no.
Earlier, you said that each department was responsible for its own information management. My colleague asked you why you had an app on your phone that directly and systematically deletes information.
Given that we are in a crisis where the public has lost trust in our institutions, why are we being told here that we have to rely on the good faith of those in charge? That's a strange answer.
When there is a crisis, extreme corrective measures must be taken to regain public trust. However, we are told that each department is responsible for its own management and that the people who are there to properly manage the information are trusted. In addition, you say that the citizens of Canada should just rely on your good faith, and I'm sure you act in very good faith, while you yourself have an app on your phone that deletes information automatically.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I understand what you're trying to explain, but it's not just a matter of good faith. We have laws and warnings. There are people who ensure that laws are complied with.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I understand what you're saying, except that when someone makes an access to information request and is told that the documents are no longer accessible or that they have disappeared, you understand that people will eventually wonder what's going on. Good faith is not a process, whether for departments, for you or for anyone else. We need to have effective structures and very clear guidelines that protect the public. Good faith is not the answer.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
That's true, but the guidelines exist. Guidelines are being put in place for transitory records. Good information management practice is not about keeping everything. We need to put in place—
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
However, you're saying that it's up to people to decide what is transitory and what is not. Isn't that what you said earlier?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, but they have to follow the guidelines.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Dominic, for coming.
With the government announcing a comprehensive expenditure review, could you share what steps are being taken to ensure that access to information services are not negatively affected?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question. It's a difficult one, in the sense that each department and agency is ultimately responsible for making sure that they're following the steps that are described in the act.
Something that I did specifically was that I sent an email out—as I mentioned earlier in an answer to one of the questions that were asked—back in August to all of my deputy minister colleagues to remind them of their responsibility when it comes to the act, and that it is mandatory to make sure that they are set up to be able to respond to access to information and privacy requests.
Leading into the expenditure review, I've reached out. That being said, the expenditure review has just been launched. I haven't been able to look into whether or not there have been cuts with regard to access to information. In fact, I've had only one colleague so far reach out to mention to me that their department might be impacted. That colleague happens to be sitting to my left.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
There are many misconceptions about access to information request data. Some have suggested that Canada's access to information regime has deteriorated. Based on the data, could you clarify whether that is the case or not?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I might turn to my colleague Charles Taillefer for perhaps a more comprehensive answer, but maybe I can answer your question in the following way.
Looking purely at the data can be misleading. You heard my colleague who appeared for the Privy Council Office mention previously that there are a small number of individuals who could clog up the system. For example, at one point there was one individual who happened to reach out to 50 different departments and ask for every single MS Teams chat document they had. You can imagine that one individual taking up that amount of resources across the system can be very challenging. There needs to be a way to look into that, perhaps using the Information Commissioner, so that we can prioritize and understand so that a small number of the population cannot necessarily monopolize the system.
In terms of statistics, let me just give you the following. There are, as you may have heard, over 250 institutions that the law applies to. Of those 250 institutions, 155 actually received a request and closed the request in 2024-25. Of those 155 institutions, 91 responded at a rate of 90% or more. That's not a system that is completely failing. In fact, when I go abroad, I see that Canada is actually seen as a star performer when it comes to trust and transparency.
Now, that being said, by no means do I think that we have a perfect system—far from it. There are significant inroads and changes that still need to be made, and we're looking forward to doing that when we're engaging Canadians and parliamentarians for the next review.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
One very hard subject, when the commissioner appeared, was that you're trying to take powers away from her, but her power was given to her in 2019 under former prime minister Justin Trudeau's government. The right to take powers away from her exists only with Parliament. Could you tell me why she would make such a statement, which is, in my opinion, a misleading statement?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think if there is a misconception here, it stems from a draft document for consultation that we prepared and that was released through access to information. Because it was a draft and because we haven't officialized the launch of those consultations, it was redacted. Perhaps parts of that document were read by the Information Commissioner, who saw that her order-making powers were part of the review and therefore perhaps inferred that we might be contemplating consulting and then maybe proposing that those powers need to be reviewed for the next opening of the Access to Information Act.
As I think we've explained here today, the intention is absolutely, categorically not to remove or reduce those powers, but rather to look at them to make them more efficient.