Evidence of meeting #28 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
There is no such directive that applies to every department and agency. Each department and agency ultimately makes its own decision as to how long to keep them.
I can tell you that at Treasury Board Secretariat, that number is 30 days.
Is it onerous? It depends. I can give you a quick number. In the last five months, at Treasury Board Secretariat, there were 962,000 Teams messages per month.
Conservative
Liberal
Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Witnesses, thank you very much for being here.
Mr. Rochon, I would like to focus on some things that I'd like to check and confirm with you.
We had the Information Commissioner here on Monday. One of the things she mentioned or raised was the lack of commitment from the Treasury Board Secretariat. That lack is much more related to access to information requests in general.
Could you clarify what kinds of conversations took place with her office? How often did you interact with the commissioner's office?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Certainly. She's an officer of Parliament, of course, so we have to respect the independence of the commissioner's office.
It goes without saying that we work with her. The team at the Access to Information and Privacy Communities Development Office repeatedly interacts with her office. I myself give the commissioner updates about every six weeks.
Liberal
Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC
I have another question for you.
You know that the power to issue orders is quite significant. The Information Commissioner has said that the Treasury Board Secretariat is taking that power away from her. Is that true? How might you qualify what she said?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
This isn't a matter of nuance, and that isn't true at all. We have no intention of reducing or removing her power to issue orders.
However, there are still approaches that target the systemic challenges related to these orders. The power to issue these orders was given to her in 2019. It has been in place for only five or six years. These orders have led to conflicts with certain departments. We'd like to know whether we can improve things when it comes to these orders.
It's not a matter of completely disregarding them, but a matter of opening the door a bit to understand how they can be further improved.
Liberal
Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC
I would like to give you the opportunity to speak to the following.
There was the previous review. When any organizational process goes under review, the goal is to see improvements. That's normal; nothing is perfect. Could you tell the committee the key measures your organization has taken since the last review to steer itself toward improvements?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'm going to ask Mr. Taillefer to list the various tasks.
Charles Taillefer Executive Director, Access to Information Policy and Performance, Treasury Board Secretariat
There have been a number of improvements to the guidelines that have been made to try to limit the number of consultations. The commissioner raised the fact that this was a systemic problem that resulted in delays in the system.
We have also had a lot of training. The Access to Information and Privacy Communities Development Office coordinated training on specific sections of the Access to Information Act, including extensions, to ensure that access to information offices use and interpret the act consistently.
A number of measures have been taken on the administrative and operational side. We have also made improvements to the portal to make it easier for requesters to make requests. We're trying to target requests correctly so that requesters can get the information they're looking for.
Liberal
Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC
For the sake of transparency for the people watching, the public, I heard comments from across the table stating that the Treasury Board Secretariat had imposed the permanent deletion of messages within 15 days. Could you clarify that point, because I'd like it to be included in the meeting transcript and pointed out? How does it actually work in practice, on a day-to-day basis, and how is essential information preserved for access to information requests?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll turn to Mr. Taillefer. I replied to Mr. Barrett earlier that there was no directive that we would have issued for all departments. In fact, each department and agency is responsible for making its own decisions about its timelines.
Maybe Mr. Taillefer would like to respond, and Ms. Weir as well.
Executive Director, Access to Information Policy and Performance, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are document disposition authorizations that form the basis of the system. However, I would say how it's communicated, because, as we said earlier, transitory records are subject to the act once a request is received. The request is sent to all employees who are required to respond to the request.
Liberal
Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Rochon, I asked the witnesses from the previous hour how to distinguish transitory records from organizational documents. What criteria do you use?
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I have a list of examples of transitory records: working drafts, information that lacks a logical or coherent structure, and informal messages such as dinner invitations. Since we started late today, I also received texts, MS Teams chats, telling me that I needed to rearrange my upcoming schedule a bit. Those messages are indeed transitory information.
Conservative
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon and welcome to the witnesses.
Mr. Rochon, last September, Treasury Board officials responsible for developing access to information policies suggested that the government may need to review the Information Commissioner's powers to issue orders. You said earlier that this was out of the question, which is reassuring, but you're going to have to say a bit more than that, because these powers were given to her by the House of Commons.
On the one hand, what is this about—since it's hard to make this stuff up—and, on the other hand, isn't the commissioner, who has issued some 40 orders to three fundamental institutions, somewhat of an important safeguard to call those institutions to order? Those institutions have to comply with an act that's fundamental to democracy and the right of Canadians to have a minimum amount of information in a world of absolutely astounding disinformation.
I'd like a specific answer, since you answered earlier, but your answer wasn't specific.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Mr. Taillefer can give you even more details, but let me tell you that you're referring to a document from September. We initiated the mandatory review of the act, so we created this document. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we have suggested certain areas—not chosen at random—for review in this draft document that we'll be using to conduct a consultation on the possibility of revising the act.
My answer was that it isn't a matter of revising or removing anything, or—
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
—diminishing existing powers. That said, as you're saying, given that the commissioner has had to use these orders, and given that there were still complications and costs, wouldn't it be possible to make the use of these orders a little easier? That's why, if we were to amend the act, we might have to determine whether there's a way to improve those powers, which have been in place for barely six years. I don't know whether you need any further clarification, and whether Mr. Taillefer would like to add anything.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
I'll let you continue, but you'll agree that, whenever there's a complaint that leads to an order from the commissioner, it's because there's a failure somewhere, a failure to meet the deadline or comply with the act.
However, the commissioner gives the complaint credibility in that she says that she is conducting a review, that not all access requests will be subject to an order. The importance of the order-making power is to call institutions to order and ensure that they can find an internal way to finally respond properly to the act, whether by training their staff, changing practices or adding resources.
The order-making power is a bit like a restriction, a safeguard for institutions like yours.
Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I absolutely agree with you. In fact, the example the commissioner gave about the behaviour of the Department of National Defence illustrates exactly what you're saying. She found that there were improvements to be made, and the Department of National Defence has in fact started doing many things to improve its performance.
I don't know if you want even more clarification on certain aspects.
Bloc
