Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communication.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you.
We talked earlier about the Lobbyists Transparency Act that was passed in British Columbia.
For example, you talked about oral communications, transparency and the removal of thresholds.
Do you want to say anything else about that?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
In British Columbia, this obligation has been enshrined in law. People have to disclose the funding they receive to support their lobbying activities. That's interesting. It exists in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia.
In my report, I included references to articles on that topic.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Okay.
In recommendation 15, you talk about the five-year restriction on lobbying.
I'd like to have more details on that. I believe former public office holders are given two years in British Columbia, whereas they get one year in some provinces.
I'd like to know why you say that five years is better even though it's two years in British Columbia.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The five-year period stems from a decision made by Parliament in 2008, and it's in the Lobbying Act. I didn't make that decision, so I'm applying the act as it's written.
Currently, a designated public office holder who leaves office is prohibited from lobbying as a consultant lobbyist or on behalf of an organization. However, if they go work for a company, they can lobby for up to eight hours. That discrepancy has to be eliminated. That's the first thing.
The question remains whether the five-year period should stay in the act. I admit that this is a long time. However, for some people, the prohibition period should perhaps be longer than five years. I think that this period is reasonable for certain people at the moment. The way the section is currently worded gives me a lot of flexibility to look at each case and determine whether conditions could be imposed. For example, the five-year period could be reduced for people who have administrative duties or have been in office for a very short period of time. That means that there are already criteria in place that allow for some flexibility so that not everyone is subject to the five-year period.
I have heard some people say that maybe there should be categories, and that some people should have to respect the five-year period and others should have to respect a different number of years, such as a year or two. It's important to be careful. Someone who holds an entry-level position but has been travelling from one department to another for 15 years has just as good a network as that of someone who was a minister for three years, for example.
The goal of the restriction is precisely to prevent former public office holders from giving an advantage to their new employer or a new client because of the people they have met and the information they have obtained during their years of work. It's important to be careful, then. It's not as easy as just saying that certain positions will be appointed.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I realize that the criterion isn't so much the position held. However, you're saying that this is already in place.
Do former public office holders often ask you to reduce the five-year period?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Over the past year, we have received 23 requests. There are maybe still two that we're working on. I think I accepted half of those requests.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Very often, it isn't former ministers and former members of Parliament who ask me for exemptions. It's the employees from ministers' offices. They ask me if we can shorten the five-year period, because they worked for only six months, didn't hold their position for long and only did administrative duties.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I'd like to come back to the history of associations and volunteering that you mentioned earlier. This is very prevalent, and you can name them all. Depending on the sector in which the association operates, if they're entrepreneurs, they're part of the association and they're the ones who make representations on a volunteer basis.
Should the association register?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, that's what we're saying right now. If the association has an employee, the most senior executive is responsible for registering the association. Very often, the members of these associations tell me that they're part of the association on a volunteer basis, that none of them are paid and that they lobby on behalf of the association.
That's an issue for me sometimes, especially if the lobbying is done on a volunteer basis during office hours. Is it really volunteer work, or is it actually work that they carry out as a representative of their employer?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you very much.
Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Earlier, you told us to add a list of designated public office holders to the Lobbying Act.
How would we do that? Do you have any ideas?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I may have misspoken. What I wanted to say is that there's already a definition. Part of that definition is in the Lobbying Act. In fact, it mentions subsection 128(1) of the Public Service Employment Act.
Remove that section and determine who is a public office holder in a minister's office, for example.
There's also a regulation. If you look at the lobbyists registration regulations, you will see that there is a long list of people who can be designated as public office holders. That list could be added to the Lobbyists Act.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
From what you're saying, there are criteria that allow you to exempt a person from the five-year prohibition.
Do we know what those criteria are? Are they—
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, they're set out in the act.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
You mentioned people who haven't been in office for long, for example. Is that mentioned in the act?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. Right now, the act says that the commissioner considers all the factors and circumstances, including whether a person held an acting or short-term position or performed administrative work.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Okay.
All you have to determine at that point, then, is whether the person fits one of those definitions and whether they were indeed in office for a short period.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That's right.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. I also look at other factors. I take the situation into account.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Okay.
I just wanted to understand how the mechanics work, because the laws are somewhat general, particularly when it comes to their application.
The last time we saw each other, in October, you talked about the Yukon. You said that this territory had incorporated the concept of a “directing mind”.
Do you think it would be worthwhile for us to incorporate that as well?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It's interesting, because the Yukon included the concept of “directing mind” as if it were an employee of an organization or a corporation, whereas the definition of “directing mind” doesn't include the payment criterion. Someone who's a volunteer board member, for example, and who lobbies isn't currently included. They wouldn't have to register.
I think it's an interesting concept, this idea of a “directing mind”, especially if it's a fairly high-ranking person who's actually directing the work of a company or an organization, but who chooses not to get paid.
Bloc
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That's true. I can verify it if I do an investigation.