Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communication.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Do you have the right to stop a lobbying activity?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. I have that right.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You have the right to tell an organization that it's over.
Is that correct?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If you're talking about the right to prohibit a lobbying activity, I can prohibit lobbying only in cases where the organization or person under investigation has been found guilty.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
During all the time that the RCMP's investigation takes, you can see that there's a problem, and you can tell an organization that things aren't working at all. However, the time frame gets longer. It will be sorted out one day, but that's beyond your purview.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That's beyond my purview, yes.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Okay.
If a meeting takes place with a private company and 20 people show up to meet a minister with graphs, books and so on, and they come once a week for an hour and a half, does that count as an hour and a half, or do you use a cumulative total?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I use a cumulative total. The act currently states that it has to be done that way. If those 20 people show up for an hour and a half, they should register after that meeting.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Okay.
Basically, you use a cumulative total of the number of people.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, that's right.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I understand.
If a meeting takes place on a regular basis, as we said earlier in our example, it may or may not be recorded.
Do you monitor all the phone calls that may take place after the meeting?
Do you have the power to say that you want to see everything that goes on? Do you absolutely have to conduct an investigation to get access to the phone records?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The current system certainly places a lot of trust in people. There are six people on my investigative team. If organizations and businesses are registered and there are monthly communication reports, I have no reason to think that they aren't meeting the act's requirements.
However, if I see that there were meetings—you'd be surprised at the number of emails or photos I receive to show that people are clearly lobbying and aren't registered—I will do some research. I'll ask questions and ask you what the purpose of the meeting was and whether there was any communication afterward. If the answer is yes, I do the math to see if it's close to 32 hours. If so, I refer the matter to the RCMP.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I'll go back to my example from earlier.
If representatives of a company regularly meet with a minister for an hour and a half a week, every week, and—even if the number of hours is below the eight-hour threshold—they talk for three hours every day, doesn't anyone react?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Allegations would have to be made, or I would have to have doubts as to whether they were complying with the eight-hour threshold. If they weren't complying, I open an investigation.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Do you have the right to ask at random, without conducting an investigation?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, I have the right to do that.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You could say that you're in the area and want to see their phone records to see if anything is going on.
Is that correct?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I always do that when I have doubts. I do that under the authority I have been granted. I can conduct a preliminary investigation to check whether the act has been complied with.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
In my view, I can do that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Hardy.
Ms. Lapointe, you have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you again, Ms. Bélanger, for all your clarifications.
I'd like to come back a bit to what my colleague Abdelhaq Sari said earlier about public office holders who are in the office of the official opposition and aren't registered.
Do you find that surprising?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
They aren't the ones who have to register. Lobbyists have to register any communication, and they do so because they assume that the employees of that office are appointed under subsection 128(1) of the Public Service Employment Act or because it's required by regulations. However, it has been confirmed to me that no one is appointed under subsection 128(1). In other words, these communication reports aren't necessary.
Things have to be cleared up. It's important to decide whether to keep subsection 128(1). If it gets kept, it has to be provided for in the act and apply to everyone. I would personally remove the reference to any section of an act, because those acts can change. The numbers can change.
We could also work together to determine which positions you believe should be designated public office holders and include that list in the act.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
That would be clearer. As soon as someone tries to exert influence, it has to be registered.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. That's right.