Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communication.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Did you have to do that for the current Prime Minister, given his rather unique situation?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I can't confirm that, because I can't confirm whether or not I'm investigating this matter.
However, I can tell you that I ask for access to all communications, and I am given it. If there were phone calls, I would ask to see them.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
When you conduct an investigation, the process is confidential.
Is that correct?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It rarely becomes public, given the way the Lobbying Act is currently written. I send all the information to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP.
I don't have the power to declare that someone did not comply with the Lobbying Act. If I have reasonable doubts that there is an offence, I have to tell the RCMP.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, absolutely. I wish I had it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
That's it.
Thank you, Mr. Thériault.
Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner.
I want to look at some potential loopholes under the Lobbying Act, with a view to closing them.
In September 2024, Mark Carney was appointed by then prime minister Justin Trudeau as the chair of the leader's task force on economic growth. In this capacity, Mr. Carney had direct access to the prime minister. Indeed, Justin Trudeau touted Mr. Carney as his economic adviser.
Normally, the economic adviser to the prime minister would be housed within the Prime Minister's Office. In this case, Mr. Carney technically was not. He was instead held out as an adviser to the leader of the Liberal Party, who just happened to be the prime minister. Had Mr. Carney been housed in the Prime Minister's Office, he would have been a designated public office holder under the Lobbying Act. Isn't that correct?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, had he been appointed under section 128 of the Public Service Employment Act, he would have been a designated public office holder.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Since he was officially an adviser to the leader of the Liberal Party, he was not a designated public office holder under the Lobbying Act. Is that correct?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That's correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Consequently, any individual, corporation or entity that would be subject to the Lobbying Act—and would, therefore, have to report any meeting with a designated public officer holder on matters of government policy—would not have to report any meetings they had with Mark Carney discussing matters of government policy. Is that correct?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That's correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
In simple terms, we have no idea who lobbied Mark Carney and what they lobbied him on while he was Justin Trudeau's economic adviser. Is that fair?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Unless there was some other transparent mechanism under the Lobbying Act, no.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Okay.
When you appeared before this committee on November 5, 2024, you said, with respect to the objectives of the Lobbying Act, “It is important for transparency, to make sure that Canadians know who's meeting whom and about what, and what leads to the decisions that decision-makers are making.” Do you stand by those words?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Absolutely.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
While Mark Carney served as Justin Trudeau's economic adviser and had the ear of the prime minister on matters of government policy, we'll never know who he met with, what was discussed and what influence those discussions had on decisions made by the prime minister and the government. Given that, would you agree that the arrangement Mark Carney had with Justin Trudeau was contrary to the spirit of the Lobbying Act?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There are different mechanisms by which you can enhance transparency. Did this fit into the Lobbying Act? No. As well, individuals who lobby the federal government also need to be paid. That's another requirement of the Lobbying Act currently. If someone is lobbying for free for a particular position, they're not covered by the act, which is also something that we should be looking into, if it's something that is of interest to this committee.
I'm not trying to reduce volunteer work and people who are coming to you as constituents, because they have an issue. That's not what we're looking at. In particular, when people are former designated public office holders, they are prohibited from lobbying for five years, mainly because of the network that they've created. But if they go and volunteer for an organization, any communication that they have with their former colleagues is not covered by the Lobbying Act, because they're doing it for free, possibly. This is something I think we need to put some thought into, for sure.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Commissioner, I agree with you on that point, but I would also add that in the case of Mark Carney serving as an adviser to the leader of the Liberal Party, who just happened to be the prime minister, it's not simply that it didn't fit into the Lobbying Act. It appears to be a clear circumvention, or an attempt to circumvent the Lobbying Act in the same way that Mark Carney tried to circumvent the Conflict of Interest Act, while he held that same role.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm not getting into what the intents were and whatever. That is the result.