Information & Ethics Committee on April 23rd, 2026

[Jean-François Routhier]

I don't think so, because different things can be done.

The first thing we did, a few years ago, was to replace the lobbyists' registry with a new platform that is much more effective, much easier. Once you are registered, it takes less than 15 minutes to write a mandate, which can also be done by phone through the minister's office. It uses technology, but it's practical.

Currently, in Quebec, we have 1,500 companies or organizations with active mandates. There are more than 5,000 mandates, meaning 5,000 lobbying activities registered each day. Fifteen hundred companies have that kind of mandate and there are 5,600 in-house corporate lobbyists. But we still have a lot of SMEs registered and conducting their lobbying activities.

However, I feel that we can simplify the legislation. I understand your point of view. The acts should be simplified in certain ways. I feel that we must focus on the real activities that are relevant to the public.

So my position is that the idea of “significant part” in no way recognizes the appropriateness of the information for the public. As my colleague Ms. Motherwell mentioned, it does not account for the preceding 49 hours. It does not account for the most relevant activities or those that are targeted at the main public office holders. It just accounts for the total. That's the challenge with the idea of “significant part”.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Earlier, you said something that I feel is very important. You said that, if you are lobbying to get a grant, it's covered by the act, but if you are lobbying for a direct contract, it is not covered by the act.

Do you think that is logical, given that, when all is said and done, public money, the taxpayers' money, will be spent?

If I am lobbying the federal government for a sole source contract, I am not required to comply with the Lobbying Act and declare it. Does that seem logical to you?

[Jean-François Routhier]

It makes no sense to me. Contracts are contracts in Quebec and they are all covered, no matter whether a consultant lobbyist or a company is conducting the lobbying activities. They are all in-house lobbyists.

However, in Quebec, 14% of the mandates are about contracts. This is important in terms of the figures and in terms of the money. The concept of entering into a contract with the state is as important with contracts as it is with grants or funding.

In my view, this hole that currently exists in the federal act is a problem. There is no transparency in contracting when the companies are doing the activities.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

If I were to compare the work of the Commissioner of Lobbying with the work of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, I would say that both should have the ability to impose penalties. A report on ethics has just been produced and it deals with proportional penalties.

Is it your impression that the Commissioner of Lobbying and the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner should have the ability to impose penalties when dubious practices are identified? By that I mean penalties severe enough to discourage practices that are all but illegal.

Do you believe that more penalties of that kind should be imposed?

[Jean-François Routhier]

Absolutely. In Quebec, we have an additional power, which is to impose disciplinary penalties by suspending the activities of any lobbyist who may allegedly have broken the law. Otherwise, legally, we are in much the same situation as those at federal level. However, at least we have the power to conduct complete investigations.

I understand that the federal commissioner has to submit her investigations to the RCMP, which clearly involves costs and delays. I feel that it is very appropriate to have a full range of powers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Hardy and Mr. Routhier.

Ms. Lapointe, from the Liberal Party, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to say that we had a press conference earlier today, with you and Mr. Hardy. I have to apologize. I mentioned some things that were best left unsaid. There, that's done.

Commissioners, thank you for joining us today.

Does the legislation you both work under deal with grassroots lobbying? If so, can you tell me more about it?

[Cathryn Motherwell]

Yes, we do have grassroots in our legislation, but it's a form of communication and you have to identify it if it's going to be part of the way in which you're proposing to communicate with a public office holder. We actually have a checkbox that asks if you are going to be communicating via letter or in a meeting or by embarking on grassroots lobbying.

As you know, grassroots can use any means, including ads, websites and social media. It is essentially to encourage members of the public to communicate with public office holders directly through any means, including letters, email, social media, etc.

In Ontario, merely managing grassroots communication is considered lobbying. Examples of this type of lobbying are directing a campaign, making decisions about the message of a campaign and making decisions about the techniques that would be used as part of that campaign, which, as I said, is to get members of the public to write to or communicate with a public office holder.

Administrative work and research to support a campaign are not considered part of lobbying activity in Ontario, but if a client pays a lobbyist to manage that grassroots communication, then they must register as a consultant lobbyist.

Finally, in another example, if an in-house lobbyist manages grassroots communications for their employer, the senior officer may need to register that lobbying if the 50-hour threshold is met.

That's a summary of what exists in our legislation.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Routhier, can you answer the question?

[Jean-François Routhier]

Grassroots lobbying does not exist in the sense that Quebec does not require the disclosure of that kind of lobbying. It's one of the things we would like to change. But we have introduced the concept of voluntary disclosure through the lobbyists' registry, in cases when an appeal to the public is used in a lobbying campaign.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

How does your legislation define legal entities and organizations? Does the definition correspond to the way in which federal legislation defines them?

You can answer first, Mr. Routhier. Then you can answer afterwards, Ms. Motherwell.

[Jean-François Routhier]

Actually, only a few not-for-profit organizations are covered by our legislation. The concept of corporation or organization is relatively limited because those included are individuals. So we register lobbyists, not entities. That's actually one of the major changes we are proposing.

I think that you have met with officials from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. That's one of the changes we are asking for in Quebec's legislation and it's also a change that the federal commissioner is asking for. Thoughts are not very clear on companies and organizations, except when it comes to excluding some not-for-profits.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Motherwell, would you like to answer the question?

[Cathryn Motherwell]

Just so I'm clear on the question, are you asking to compare what the Ontario legislation says about not-for-profits versus other entities?

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I am asking whether the definition of legal entities and organizations in Ontario corresponds to the way in which federal legislation defines them.

[Cathryn Motherwell]

Thank you.

They're all in-house organizations or in-house for-profits and not-for-profits. It is the same. The requirements are identical. Again, they're captured under the 50-hour threshold, after which registration is required in the name of the senior officer. The registration must then list all those who have contributed to the 50 hours as being active lobbyists on behalf of the organization, whether it's for-profit or not-for-profit.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Does the 50-hour threshold apply to telephone communications as well as communications by email, by letter and in person?

Did I understand correctly?

[Cathryn Motherwell]

It's everything that meets the definition of lobbying—which is communication with an intent to influence—provided it is part of that individual's job and they're paid for it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.

Mr. Garon, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to both commissioners for joining us today.

We have discussed the hole in the federal legislation in terms of lobbying in connection with the awarding of public contracts, lobbying done by companies who want to develop a contractual relationship with the government.

At the moment, there is no framework for that. We are studying the Lobbying Act today. It does not mean that the act will automatically be amended, because it's a process of consultation.

In Quebec, we have often identified major flaws in the legislation on lobbying, or in the observance of the legislation when major infrastructure projects are involved. I don't want to rehash our recent history, but we did have the Charbonneau commission and the scandals in the construction industry when it came to building roads and interchanges, and so forth.

Today, there's a gaping hole in the federal legislation, just as projects with record-breaking costs are starting up: pipelines, rail networks, high-speed trains, military procurement, military bases, fighter aircraft and so on.

It's one heck of a hole—pardon my language. Commissioner Routhier, is it not urgent to plug it before we start all that procurement and all those big infrastructure projects?

[Jean-François Routhier]

I am really not here to pass judgment on federal government projects. I am not going to comment on those matters.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I am asking about the vulnerability of the major infrastructure projects in terms of the shortcoming in the act.

[Jean-François Routhier]

If you read the recent report from the Gallant commission, you will see that it is precisely one of the points that was raised. We saw that no private lobbying mandate was on record in connection with the contracts awarded for the SAAQclic megaproject. There, the public, even public office holders, was never aware that lobbying activities connected to that megaproject even took place.

As I said by way of introduction, that aspect of federal legislation has to be improved, as in any legislation that has to do with lobbying. A lot of influence comes into play when contracts are awarded. I feel that we need a smart framework, one that eliminates things past a certain threshold. The public accepts a threshold it sees as appropriate. So it would be preferable to have lobbying activities more closely regulated, and therefore appropriate, for contracts above a certain value.

Once again, for us, the rules for lobbying should be based on the relevance of the information for the public, so that they are aware of what is going on and so that they can make informed choices. The idea of relevance is not in the hands of those doing the lobbying.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I'd like to ask a related question. At the moment, there is no threshold. Anything would be an improvement. That's a significant part of the problem.

Should we include the types of lobbying conducted by Crown corporations and their affiliates? The examples that come to me are Via Rail and Alto.

Are we going that far?

[Jean-François Routhier]

Once again, that question should perhaps go to the Commissioner of Lobbying. I am not an expert on federal legislation and all the Crown corporations it could encompass.

I can simply confirm that, in Quebec, Crown corporations, departments, agencies and municipal corporations are covered by the legislation. The definition of a lobbying activity therefore applies in all cases.