Evidence of meeting #41 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registry.
A video is available from Parliament.
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
If I understand you correctly, Ms. Bélanger….
First of all, it's a pleasure to see you again. From 2019 to 2021, I was a new member of Parliament.
I am pleased to see that recommendations have been made. My concern is that they are not being acted upon.
Am I wrong to note that you are disappointed that no additional funding was provided to your office as part of the spring economic update 2026, which was issued in April?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Honestly, I didn't ask for money this year, because I saw the financial situation and where we were headed with the fiscal years. Therefore, I decided to work with the team we have and not to submit a budget request this year. I didn't expect anything, so I wasn't disappointed.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
That said, I'm sure there are recommendations that you would like to see implemented. Earlier, we talked about public office holders and penalties. A lot of countries are moving forward. Do we have what it takes?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think there's a lot of work to be done. We need to improve the act because, in the same vein, I get the sense that I don't have the tools to ensure compliance with the act. My options are either negotiation to get people to comply or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
If someone is late, continues to be late and is late again, then I have to accept it. I can't do anything except, perhaps, start an investigation and send it to the RCMP. They would send it back to me, because they're not interested in investigating people who are late. It's not important enough for them, which I understand.
I think the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying needs a range of penalties to ensure compliance.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Basically, in a nutshell, what is your objective as commissioner? My next questions will show you where I'm going with this.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It is clear to me that our objective, our vision, is for all lobbying to be transparent and ethical. You can't have transparency without ethics and ethics without transparency. The two go together.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
If we're talking about transparency, then it's not just a watchdog. You also want to have legitimacy and enforcement potential.
Do you feel that, in your impartial role, you have everything you need to do your job properly and achieve your objective?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think we do our work very well with the very few resources we have, within the current framework of the Lobbying Act. However, the act absolutely needs to be improved.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Is it possible to send us your top priorities? I know you have 17 or 18 of them.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
We have 21 recommendations.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
We asked external people what the main priorities were. Some said that the ban on lobbying by former public office holders should be increased to more than five years. Others said that it should be about legislation and enforcement.
The committee would like you to send us your main recommendations, perhaps the five most important ones.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I find it hard to determine the five most important recommendations, because it's a whole. You can't change one thing without changing another.
In my opinion, registration by default is one. Everyone who lobbies should be registered. Second, we absolutely have to remove the distinction between organizations and corporations. When people call me, the answer is always that it depends on this or that.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It's never clear. We need a much simpler act.
Most of my recommendations are aimed at simplifying things or have to do with a spectrum of penalties related to that.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I like that expression, “spectrum of penalties”. I'm writing it down.
I have one last question. You mentioned the ministerial portfolio. How could everything be adjusted to increase transparency and make it as impartial as possible? If we ask for additional funding and, in the end, we point fingers because it no longer falls through the cracks…. I see that with the 19 files. How should that be managed?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There are about 10,000 lobbyists. I sent 19 files to the RCMP. A lot of people complied with the rules. The ones who didn't are the ones we have to find. Canada is a big country, and I have a team of 35. We're doing the best we can.
In terms of independent funding, I joined the agents of Parliament in 2007. At the time, there was talk of independent funding. Twenty years later, there is still talk. No solution was ever found. It's apparently hard.
I would recommend that Parliament have a committee to determine the budgets of agents of Parliament. New Zealand has a model whereby only one member per party sits on the committee so that it's not partisan. Agents of Parliament are neutral and independent. That way, a parliamentary committee could review our requests and determine the appropriate budget based on our work and workload, and make a recommendation to the people who provide the money.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
When there is a new way of doing things, we shouldn't make people afraid of breaking tradition, as we're doing a lot these days.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
Thank you.
I want to follow up, Commissioner, on a response you gave to one of Ms. Chagger's questions.
When you refer a file to the RCMP, believing that the law has been broken, and the RCMP returns the file to you without laying charges, you have the capacity and the authority to then, should you wish, table with Parliament a report of what has gone on, detailing that you believe a breach occurred, affording procedural fairness to the individual in question and detailing that the RCMP returned it without laying charges. You could, should you believe it would increase transparency or increase compliance with or awareness of the lobbying laws in Canada, file a report in—
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I don't think the act stops me from doing that, but I have to decide.... I have to complete an investigation, and I don't know what there is to complete.
I can file reports of what I have done, but to what end? That's what I struggle with: demonstrating that I did my work. I don't know if that is actually appropriate.
We know we've done our work. We've sent it to the RCMP and it has reviewed the matter, and then three, four or five years later, it comes back, and I'm left with this and I'm not sure what to do. Most of the time, I weigh all of the information, and sometimes the issues are already out in the public domain. I will say that.
There is nothing left to be said in the case of many of the files, or the file is on someone who nobody here would know, because I have to send everything to the RCMP.
Not everything is as high profile as you would think.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
Certainly. I just wonder about when the question of public interest arises around awareness among the general public about compliance with the act and whether the RCMP or the prosecution service believes there's a reasonable prospect of conviction. That doesn't necessarily mean that your work was done in vain. Perhaps, sometimes, as is often the case in the House, simply the public being aware of who's who in the zoo can serve as a warning to people in government and business about who they're dealing with.
With that, if I may, I'll turn it over to Mr. Ho, Madam Chair.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Linda Lapointe
Thank you.
Mr. Ho, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner, for all the work you do in exposing Liberal insider ties to so many of the boondoggles we've seen in the past 11 years.
Commissioner, Canadians expect that when major policy decisions are made, especially ones that affect national security and domestic industry, they're made transparently, yet when the Liberal government moved to increase quotas for the importation of Chinese-made EVs, there was no clear public record of who influenced that decision. A foreign influence agents registry law was passed two years ago, as you know, but the Liberals haven't done anything to actually implement the registry.
In the absence of a foreign agents registry, how can your office determine whether foreign state-linked actors engaged in unregistered or shadow lobbying, as some may call it, in this case?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I will look into matters if I have reason to believe that I should, if I've been given information or if there are allegations. I have a team of 35. There are six people on my compliance team. There is no way for me to ensure and guarantee that everyone who should be in the lobbyist registry is.
However, if I receive allegations, I will look into them.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
That's namely because your mandate relies heavily on information that is disclosed to you between those registered lobbyists and Liberal public office holders.
We've heard repeated concerns about shadow lobbying, where influence is exerted outside these formal channels through informal meetings, political staff, and third party intermediaries and events.
Given the Liberal government's failure to implement the foreign agents registry, do you believe Canada is currently adequately equipped to identify and deter this kind of activity?