Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 6th, 2025

[Nancy Bélanger]

I don't believe so, currently, but they technically have until October 15 to impose any monthly communication reports. They have to do it by the 15th of the month following the month when the communication occurred, if there was a communication during that period that would meet the definition that you've set out.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Can you understand why I and a lot of Canadians would really have a tough time believing that a reportable subject would not have come up in that context, with Liberal MPs and cabinet ministers being invited by a real estate executive, a lobbyist and a banker to discuss politics?

[Nancy Bélanger]

The thing I have to say here is that I've looked at that article, and I've gone through it. Most of the people who were involved in this are not registered lobbyists. That's the first element.

The second element is that if there was a registerable subject discussed, it would have to be on behalf of their employer or a client. That's the second step before they would need to register.

Having said that, if you don't mind letting me finish, when these types of events occur and the people organizing it are not actually registered lobbyists, we do have section 4.3 in the code of conduct, which says very clearly that you should not be lobbying people who possibly have a sense of obligation towards you. Some of the examples in there are because of gifts and hospitality that go beyond the rules. I put that in there because—and that's another conversation we'll have during the legislative review—I believe there needs to be corporate accountability, not just lobbyists' personal responsibility and accountability under the act and the code.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

When we speak about a sense of obligation, also in the code, that encompasses political work. Is that right?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I do have a section specifically on political work, yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Here we have three individuals who just happen to sit on the Liberal Party executive.

[Nancy Bélanger]

It's because of that role that maybe they're not lobbying, though. I don't know what occurred during that meeting. For sure, if they are lobbying, then there are possibly some issues there, yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

If there was technical compliance with the act by the organizers of this reception; if you're in their position and you can host a reception, buy drinks and use your position of influence to spend time with a cabinet minister or an MP to make your case because you're a Liberal insider, why would you hire someone to lobby cabinet ministers to talk about a reportable matter, which would otherwise be reportable? Why would you pay someone when you can go directly and do what a lobbyist would do? You would just have a lot more access and a lot more influence. That seems to me to be, at least on the surface, what happened here.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Facts matter, so it really will depend on whether these individuals were there to represent anybody. That's how the Lobbying Act applies and how it works right now.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Certainly, isn't there a lot of smoke there, on the surface? Even putting aside the specifics of this event, there's a major loophole in the act for the scenario I just described.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I agree that we need to have that conversation about corporate accountability and responsibility, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Bélanger.

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

We're going to go to Ms. Church now for five minutes, please.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

No, it's Mr. Saini.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

It's Mr. Saini.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Saini, go ahead please.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Madam Commissioner, as a commissioner, you work with other people around the world on issues. How does Canada compare to the rest of the world when it comes to lobbying? What needs to be improved, if anything?

[Nancy Bélanger]

We used to be the leaders. Canada has now started to drop a little in many of the categories. We still are the leader with respect to the code of conduct. In fact, a lot of people around the world call me to figure out how I came to do the code that we have. With respect to the act, we have fallen down particularly in areas of, for example, the spectrum of sanctions in relation to what's disclosed for corporations and organizations with respect to beneficial ownership. We're not as good as we used to be. I'm telling you that British Columbia is one of the leaders in the world, in part due to having some excellent elements that require registration and transparency.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

What type of a sanction would you like to see in the Lobbying Act? How would those sanctions improve the application of the act for which you are responsible?

[Nancy Bélanger]

It would improve it because of the speed at which I would be able to.... An event occurs, I look at it, and I can possibly impose a penalty or an obligation to obtain training. Now, I have to suspend and send to the RCMP. It takes a lot of resources to investigate, do reports and send. It takes time. Sometimes they're returned to me many, many years later.

For efficiency, and also for the public to have confidence in the work I'm doing, I find it very frustrating to not be able to talk about many of these files. There would be an education component to enable us to say, “You know what, this person has been late 10 times in the last 10 registrations. That's enough. Let's do a monetary penalty.” These are ways we could improve the regime.

My colleagues in the provinces have that power. I don't.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

In 2024, you said that the Lobbying Act needed to be reviewed every five years.

Do you still believe that the commission should prioritize reviewing the Lobbying Act? Do you still believe that should be happening?

Secondly, what do you think the scale and scope of the review should be?

[Nancy Bélanger]

The act says that it must be reviewed by this committee every five years. The last time that happened was in 2012. When I came here for my first nomination in 2017, I was asked, “Can you be ready in the spring of 2018?” I said that I would do my best. I would have been in the job for just a few months. I was ready. I was asked in 2021 if I could share where I was at with my recommendations. I shared a preliminary report on my website. I shared it with this committee. I'm sure your clerk would have had access to it back in 2021. It's a mandatory obligation to review. We've lost two opportunities to continue to improve and to be at the forefront. Yes, of course, I believe the review of the act needs to continue to happen.

Regarding the scope, we should look at how to improve it from top to bottom. Every recommendation has an impact on the rest of the act. I do think that it should be a complete review.

[Gurbux Saini, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You mentioned that often you have to send files to the RCMP. Are those activities criminal in nature? Do you have to send to the RCMP every file that needs a review?

[Nancy Bélanger]

The Lobbying Act says that being late to register is an offence. Providing false information on the registry is an offence. Lobbying while unregistered is an offence. Lobbying while prohibited from lobbying is an offence. Everything is an offence.

If I'm in an investigation and I find that breach, I must send it to the RCMP. I just don't investigate every time somebody is late. There are five, six, seven, or 10 people late a week. I accept that registration for transparency purposes. However, I would like to be able to impose penalties, because, eventually, they are constantly late, and it's not good for transparency. Transparency delayed is transparency denied. We do need to improve our regime. Every breach of the act is an offence that I must suspend and send to the RCMP. They are not all created equal. I think we need to fix that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Bélanger. Thank you, Mr. Saini.

Ms. Bélanger, you're probably aware of this, but the committee has asked the House for an order of reference to have this committee study the legislative review of the act. You have referred to the fact that it hasn't been done. It can be done by any committee. It can be done by a Senate committee or a joint Senate and Commons committee. We have asked that this committee review it. We're still waiting for that process to occur. We expect that to happen soon.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You spoke earlier about lowering the registration thresholds from 32 hours to eight hours, but not to zero hours. Why?