Sorry, I didn't catch the first part.
Evidence of meeting #12 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.
Evidence of meeting #12 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.
4:50 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Sorry, I didn't catch the first part.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
By okaying the review, it would add stability, so you would be in favour of us okaying the five-year review?
4:50 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Yes, we think that it's fine where it is. There are a couple of problems that Betty has addressed in the staffing—
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I think the review needs to be addressed with strong recommendations. The feeling is that they put the cart before the horse in establishing their staffing and recourse mechanisms at the agency. It's poisoned everybody's life ever since.
There was a comment made by the previous presenters to the fact that the employees of Revenue Canada were professional and rendering a good service. But this is affecting people's lives directly, in terms of accessing positions, promotions, and so on.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Sorry, our time is limited, but I'm still not understanding your problem. Mr. Gordon at least stated that when you're negotiating, there seems to be a problem. For the professionals, where is the problem? When there's restaffing, reallocation of staffing?
4:55 p.m.
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
The processes and the recourse—
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
They're considered not to be an independent third party.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I beg your pardon?
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
President, Audit, Financial and Scientific Group, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
The agency has implemented a staffing process based on skill profiles. To advance in your career, you must have a theoretical skill profile. The system is so cumbersome, difficult and poorly planned that it interferes with our institute's and the agency's daily work.
The agency tried to create a monster, and now it is suffering the consequences. There is no staffing, and people cannot qualify for acquiring experience in view of the competition, not because they are not qualified, but because the existing staffing process is not responsive to their needs.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you for your presentations.
My question is for the Public Service Alliance of Canada. Some employees of the Shawinigan Tax Data Centre and the Jonquière Tax Data Centre, both of which are in the province of Quebec, told us that there centres were paying the price of a greater centralization of services. By centralization, I mean, for example, if compensation services were transferred to Ottawa and Winnipeg were to only offer partial services. Some employees also said that greater centralization would result in job cuts.
Do you support a centralization policy that would create jobs in Ottawa, or elsewhere, at the expense of other regions?
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
Who are you directing the question to, Monsieur Bouchard?
Madam Bannon, would you like to proceed?
4:55 p.m.
National President, Union of Taxation Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Thank you.
It was directed to the alliance, so I'll take this one.
Some of the things that have been centralized are our compensation service delivery, which is our HR; call centres, for collections and forms and information; our warehousing, which has been reduced from about seventeen to two, and that sort of thing.
The compensation centres, for example--and I'll give you some of the problems that go with it--are now at two sites--one is in Ottawa and one is in Winnipeg. If you have a problem with your pay, you have to pick up the phone and talk to somebody either in Winnipeg or Ottawa, when you're in Shawinigan. People do not like having problems with their pay. I'm quite sure you wouldn't be too happy if your paycheque didn't show up or it was short by $400 or there was something wrong with it.
Before they centralized, each office did have compensation service people on site. You could see them and talk about your impending retirement, discuss some of the things you will need to do, how much your pension will be when you leave, and that sort of thing. That is gone. Now you're on the phone and you deal with either Ottawa or Winnipeg.
We were told that we used to have a Cadillac service and they're not prepared to give a Cadillac service to the membership any longer. We're saying the first time your pay gets messed up, we want to be there and we want to see who fixes it. I don't think they'll be calling Ottawa or Winnipeg.
We have fought a lot of these centralizations in the past. The HR section's business is to deliver service to their clients who are our members, and management as well. We are not in favour of the centralization, and we have expressed our displeasure at that. I gave compensation as an example.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
As I understand it, the union does not support the centralization policy.
Casual employees are under a lot of pressure at tax data centres because of the quotas they have to meet. If these casual employees in the regions had contracts that better met their needs, they would be able to receive employment insurance. But that is not of interest to management. By employing fewer casual employees, those who were given contracts could accumulate more weeks worked and would thus be entitled to employment insurance.
Are you going to push for action with a view to improving this situation?
5 p.m.
National President, Union of Taxation Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
There are two things—well, three—that we've done specifically for term or specified-period-of-time workers.
One is, we conducted a joint study with the employer on the employment of term employees. There have been 29 recommendations made to the CRA with respect to term employment. Some of them have been implemented; some of them have not. As well, we have taken the term issue to the collective bargaining circle and have managed to make some headway in the collective agreement for those terms who are covered by the collective agreement.
The last one was done at the same time as the last round of bargaining, but not as part of the last round of bargaining. We have a term commitment paper signed by the then-commissioner, Alan Nymark, on the employment of terms. There are certain things outlined in that document that we are still meeting with the employer about, to make sure they are looked at.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
Thanks very much, Madam Bannon.
We'll go over to you, Mr. Dykstra.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I hope you had a chance to listen to the previous presentation and some of the comments that were made. From what I've noted, from an issues perspective, at least, the biggest issue brought up both by the CRA, the Auditor General, and the CFIB is the delivery of service or lack thereof.
I thought it only fair that either Ms. Demers or Ms. Bannon respond to that aspect of the lack or apparent lack of service delivery by the CRA.
5 p.m.
National President, Union of Taxation Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
I don't know if you're aware, but the Union of Taxation Employees and the PSAC have a major campaign going on right now respecting the client service counters.
The CRA is going to appointment only. You will not be able to walk into the client service counter to get a copy of your return, to get a copy of your information—anything. You will be directed to a computer or a phone line. Our position is, we are opposed to appointment only, but we're not opposed to appointments. We feel that the clients, the taxpayers who pay their taxes, should still be allowed to walk in and get the service they pay for with their taxes.
One of the worst examples we'll give is a farmer anywhere in rural Canada. It will be very difficult for them to make an appointment, because they're only available when the weather's bad; otherwise, they're in their fields and working. It's going to be hard for them to make an appointment to come in to meet with CRA. Last year they could walk in anytime they happened to be in town.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Thanks.
Ms. Demers, one of the.... I'm sorry, go ahead.
5:05 p.m.
President, Audit, Financial and Scientific Group, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
The points that you have raised primarily concern PSAC members; however, it is also important that we not forget services for auditors. We are in favour of the overall improvement of service delivery.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Just to follow up on that a bit, one of the other comments the Auditor General made was that from a professional perspective—the profession of chartered accountants—there were accountants who actually didn't have a lot of experience who ended up being hired by the CRA. That was one of the issues identified by the Auditor General.
Would you comment on that as well?