Finance Committee on Sept. 27th, 2006

[Claire Morris]

Thank you.

Absolutely. Understandably, the indirect costs are not easily captured by everybody. They are really the supports required within a university to support research activity, whether it's computers, networks, libraries, and so on—the kind of regulatory framework that governs most research. So the point we're trying to make in the brief is that without adequate support, universities have to turn to other areas of their budgets to cover it, and that feeds into the concern about the student experience.

To argue that research is critical to this country is a given. You've cited two particularly good examples that bring together a number of researchers from a number of universities, as well as external players from the business community and the government to look at particular issues and problems, and to chart a way forward. Our argument would be that it's absolutely central, and in this country universities are central to performing that research.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you. I have one quick question to both Jim and Claire.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

No, you won't have a question for two people.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay, one quick question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

You have about 15 seconds, so use it as you will.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Is there anyone in the academic community, including professors, students, faculty, and so on, who has said we should be putting money into more millennium scholarships, boutique programs, and RESPs, instead of into transfers to provinces, for building a strong education system? Is there anyone?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you for that preamble, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

Now, I must warn you in advance that you're going to hear some bells going off. That's not me calling anyone to order; that's because there will be a vote called very shortly. Those bells are not a fire alarm or something, so don't run out. We will try to get two or three more questions in; we have a few minutes. I'm just warning you in advance

Unfortunately for Madam Wasylycia-Leis, her time is up—

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Only a yes or no.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

—or fortunately, for the rest of the committee, I'm not sure.

But we will continue with Mr. Savage now, for four minutes, sir.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the panellists.

Claire Morris, last year the AUCC put out a publication on a campaign called “Momentum” that celebrated the great success of publicly funded research in Canada at the university level and, in particular, highlighted the Government of Canada's support.

I appreciate the fact that you have to be optimistic and pleasant with the government. But I would have to think this year's publication would be “Momentum Stalled”, based on the fact that following “Momentum”, the economic update had $2.5 billion for research, including the full 40% on indirect costs, and then this budget in the spring I think has the total of $200 million, of which you cite $140 million. I don't see that there's a lot of optimism there, and I think success in research is very important.

Having said that, I'm not going to put you on the spot in answering that question, but I will ask you and/or Mr. Turk, and anybody else who wants to take a crack at this question.

We've heard that the federal government cash transfers to the provinces have been reduced—which is true—yet the government's own documents indicate that in the last 10 years the government contribution to post-secondary education has stayed constant at 25%, the difference being that money has gone into research, the millennium scholarships, the Canada access grants, and so on.

Many people have called for a dedicated transfer, including some here today—which I support in general and which I've supported in the past. My concern is that we have only so much money. What is the number one issue facing post-secondary education today? We know we have decaying infrastructure and new infrastructure needs, but it seems to me that the number one need—and I'll ask your opinion, but I'll give you mine—is access for students.

You can't do the dedicated transfer. CAUT has asked for an education act as well, but we know that's not coming, because the government gave money from Bill C-48 for infrastructure, which wasn't what it was designed for at all.

So if there's only a certain amount of money, do we give it to the provinces and let them decide completely where it goes? Or should the federal government continue to have some determining role and following up the success we've had in research, give direct support to students most in need, so that they have equal access to universities and/or community colleges?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

You have about one and a half minutes for whoever wants to address that. I encourage it to be addressed in brief.

[Claire Morris]

I'm shorter than he is, so I'll start first, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Very good.

[Claire Morris]

The point we have constantly made is that you can't talk about affordability for students without thinking about the quality and the capacity at the other end. We can provide all kinds of assistance to ensure that students get to university, but if we aren't supporting the health and well-being of the university, you end up with classes of—

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Turk, I wonder if you.... If I misquoted you, I apologize.

[Claire Morris]

It's more complex than that.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

No, I understand there are all those needs. If you have a certain amount of money, where does it go?

[James Turk]

In answer to your question, as I tried to say, we think it's important for the federal government to get a dedicated transfer so that there is some assurance, and do that jointly, develop that with the provinces so that the money goes to the universities.

The way we deal with access, first, is that the universities and colleges be adequately funded so their tuition fees can be lowered rather than raised. Secondly, the universities and colleges are in the best position to figure out how to allocate, at any particular institution, the money among the infrastructure, expanding research labs, helping students, various programs for international students, or whatever. And the needs are different by institution.

At the heart of it, figure 3 in our brief shows that the estimated federal cash transfers have indeed declined from 1983 to 2005. Mind you, the money going to the universities--

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

A case of popularity, Mr. Turk, is that I get to cut you off again.

We move now to Mr. Paquette.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Good afternoon. I want to thank all of you for your presentations.

Ms. Morris, I was a little surprised to note that your presentation made no mention of provincial transfers for post-secondary education. I realize that the title of your brief is “Investing in University Research”, but in order to do that, universities have to be able to fulfill their fundamental mission, which is education. We know that universities and colleges in Canada are currently underfunded.

Do you agree with what was proposed earlier by the Conseil national des cycles supérieurs, around which there seems to be consensus among university associations, presidents and teachers, as well as student unions, which is that 1994-95 funding levels be restored, resulting in a transfer of $4.9 billion, to ensure that universities have the core funding they require.

[Claire Morris]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

That was a very deliberate choice. Several years ago, the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada decided to support a dedicated transfer for post-secondary education. We know full well that there can't be only one priority on the table and if we are able to increase the level of support for indirect costs to 40 per cent, the universities will already be in a much better position to carry out their activities, since they will no longer have to dip into their operating budget in order to support research.

Our position is very clear. We have just completed a further proposal, which we will be making public, with respect to the roles and responsibilities of the federal government as regards post-secondary education. That proposal includes research, core funding, infrastructure, the Aboriginal population, and international students. I would refer you to that second proposal.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

When do you believe it will ready?

[Claire Morris]

Next week.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Could you send it on to us through the Clerk?

[Claire Morris]

Yes, certainly.