Finance Committee on Oct. 4th, 2006

[Melissa Blake]

That is correct.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Have you been pursuing that option?

[Melissa Blake]

We certainly have through our AEUB intervention requested what we're calling industrial agreements, which are somewhat different from off-site levies but on the same principle that the developers would contribute to infrastructure directly.

We have talked to oil industries directly to see about how we can engage them in doing things up front, as we call it.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Right.

[Melissa Blake]

We have requested Municipal Government Act changes that would enable us to look at taxation differently, so the segregation of machinery and equipment from a commercial base, because if you can appreciate what I am facing, even if I double my tax rates for every ratepayer in the region, I still can't finance the infrastructure required. So if I could separate industry from commercially based...that might give me more flexibility in what I can do, but essentially we don't benefit for a period of time.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Madam, you are aware that in other provinces it does happen where we charge development charges to people who are developing in our communities.

[Melissa Blake]

As I say, we're looking for opportunities and we'll continue to pursue that one. Thank you for the information.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I have a question for our friends from the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology and the association. Do you think the federal government should be giving money directly to students, or would you prefer it go to the institutions directly?

[Sam Shaw]

Certainly the tax, in terms of looking at the credit for apprenticeship to business and industry to encourage employers to send their workers to the apprenticeship system, I think is a good one. I would suggest that it be continued.

On the other hand, one has to look at what are some of the problems with the apprenticeship system, and certainly completion rates are an issue, a huge issue. It's one thing to get them in the door, but it's another thing to get them out of the door. I would suggest that this needs to be shored up by looking at that particular area.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Are they leaving due to financial reasons?

[Sam Shaw]

I think one of the key elements is that when you have a hot economy, clearly getting them in the door is not the problem; it's really trying to get them to go back for education and completion, because there are so many opportunities for projects and so forth. That's one of the current problems.

But in terms of looking at dollars specifically for students, again certainly on the scholarship side, I think it took us a long while to recognize that we have one- and two-year educational programs in Canada. Certainly I would encourage that there should be more looking at some of the scholarships to look at working with the provinces, business and industry, and the students to look at the growing escalation in tuition.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

An additional question is, do you think the federal government should bypass the province, or should we be working with the province? What is your view on the role between the provincial government and the federal government on post-secondary education?

[Sam Shaw]

Obviously, education is a mandate of the provinces. But I think in terms of looking at legislation over the last 50 years, you'll see that the federal government has had a huge influence on post-secondary.

Again, I would encourage the federal government to work with the provinces and to look at certain stakeholders, in terms of student groups, to look at some of the issues that are certainly faced by Canada if we want to have the knowledge economy participation and to be competitive.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I have another question for Mr. Hardy. You applauded our youth plan in terms of getting youths active as best we can through a tax incentive to do so.

You said your plan is basically about $150 million. Is that correct?

We've been on tour for three days now. If I add up just the three days, it's $6 billion. Everybody wants money. I know that's shocking to you, but do you think a more phased approach might be more appropriate?

I live in a community that has a fair number of seniors in it, for example--a tremendous number of seniors, to be frank with you. I'm getting a fair amount of pressure that it's great to have the youth involved, but what about the seniors?

Has your organization looked at a more phased approach than that everybody who signs up for anything gets a tax incentive to do so?

[David Hardy]

First of all, in our industry we're seeing seniors as the largest growth area of our business, and it's not just because of the growth in the population; seniors are becoming more active and are taking more control of their health. This is an area that our initiative would also respect.

We're also suggesting that our plan be fashioned after the children's fitness tax credit, which is not an open cheque but is capped with a $500 limit.

In terms of a phased approach, the committee or the government would select and determine what would qualify and what wouldn't qualify. We think the tax credit, in terms of its opportunity, should be open to Canadians of all ages, including seniors, and it could be phased in by the government.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Your organization just represents profit-making businesses, though, at this point. Is that correct?

[David Hardy]

That's who pays our costs, but we're asking that this initiative cover not-for-profits, YMCAs.... Any sporting activity would qualify for this initiative.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You've told us that you've had growth. Your costs for individuals joining have gone down significantly over the last number of years, but you're still seeing growth from 10% of the population to 15%. That's 5% of the population. Is that correct?

[David Hardy]

That's correct.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Do you have a projection of what the growth would be if a tax incentive was there for everybody?

[David Hardy]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you.

The time is up. We'll continue with Madam Wasylycia-Leis for seven minutes.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you very much.

We've just arrived at Fort McMurray, and it's already been an eye-opener for us. We were struck by some of the comments we picked up talking to individuals last night, comments about how much money they can make so quickly and how many problems are occurring. Some of the folks last night talked about huge drug problems. People are making money so fast that they just have no idea how to spend it responsibly.

As Melissa spoke I was just reminding myself that Jeffrey Simpson in the The Globe and Mail wrote three, or maybe more, very intensive editorials. I think he must have interviewed people at the municipality. He talks about the fact that there's been no plan for this oil sands development, that there's no one in charge. He suggests that the municipality can't cope with the burgeoning population's health needs, social needs, or housing.

I'm not being partisan. I'm quoting:

...the [Harper] Conservatives, is asleep at the switch on greenhouse-gas emissions.... And the Klein government, soon to be run by someone else, is behind on almost every aspect of managing the oil sands....

What do we do now? What advice do you have for us as federal members of Parliament for trying to help with the problem in Fort McMurray and to learn some lessons from this for the future?

I'll start with Melissa, but probably everybody here has a comment.

[Melissa Blake]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your acknowledging the kind of coverage the region has received. It goes beyond just Canadian publications. We have interests coming from around the world to speak to us on a weekly and monthly basis. The commodity is what drives that. It's about oil sands and the necessity of global interest in that commodity.

We have been advancing on that front from an economic standpoint, because it makes sense right here. When you talk about the lack of a plan, it has to be a holistic one, which includes environmental protection, the appropriate rate of development, the people who are impacted. When you hear from health and the absolute imbalance across what they provide for services for us, we're dealing in band-aids.

Right now, every time we have a significant issue, we try to find the solution to the issue. What I want to advance is a case for all three levels of government to work cooperatively to put in place all the infrastructure required for that growing population in relation to what is appropriate for development in the oil sands. We don't have that venue yet. This is a first opportunity for us to engage in a multi-party representation at the federal level, and we appreciate that opportunity.

Acknowledging that is the first thing, but coordinating it is the next essential step, and putting out the fires as they arise.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Blais.