Finance Committee on Oct. 6th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

We will commence.

Welcome, first of all, to our esteemed panellists this morning. We certainly look forward to having a chance to hear your presentations this morning.

To our committee members, who have experienced quite a week, we've travelled about 10,000 miles, I believe, and visited Whitehorse, Fort McMurray, Vancouver, and Saskatoon. But of course, this is the centre of the universe. Portage La Prairie is the place to be, and we're glad to be with you this morning.

As you know, the finance committee is charged with the responsibility of making recommendations to the finance minister for the upcoming budget, and this process is part of the preparatory work involved in that. We will be travelling to nine communities across the country, as well as hearing submissions in Ottawa. We just passed the 250-submission mark, so we're over the hump in terms of our work and we look forward to hearing the rest of our submissions.

I'll begin this morning by reminding you that you have five minutes to make your presentations. I will give you an indication when you have one minute remaining and when you have less than that, and I will cut you off at five--in the interest, of course, of dialogue thereafter.

Again, thank you for being here. We will begin with Lloyd Axworthy.

Welcome, sir, and over to you for five minutes.

[Lloyd Axworthy, President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Winnipeg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm glad to be here with a distinguished panel of many of my colleagues in the field of higher education. And it's good to be back in front of the committee and to be in the garden spot of North America, here in your constituency.

In the brief time I have today, I want to raise one very specific issue that I think is really vital, not only to my own university and to Manitoba but to the country as a whole, and that is the urgent need to invest in the education of aboriginal people in Canada. It is absolutely crucial for the development of Canada's human potential, its economic well-being, its sense of fairness and equity, and for the advancement of both national and international goals.

What currently exists is not working, and just throwing more money at it will not fix what is basically a broken system. What I think is really needed is a much more coherent, practical, concrete, innovative set of actions that are tied to a common strategy. I'm not here to talk about things in the abstract. I think it's time to get down to practical necessities, because the time is passing.

Here in western Canada we have what is one of the unique comparative advantages of any developed country in the western world--a young and growing aboriginal population compared to most other societies where the population is aging and in decline. This is an enormous asset that must be developed and nurtured in terms of the future well-being of all of us. But this opportunity will be lost if we don't take the educational challenge seriously.

Far too many aboriginal youths are disengaging and dropping out of school. In the provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan virtually 70% do not finish high school at this point in time. That means that the pool of people available to go on to post-secondary education in colleges and universities is so small that the draw is really meaningless and actual numbers are declining in the rates of participation. With some notable exceptions, many still do not move into post-secondary education.

There's a lack of skill preparation in crucial areas, a shortage of aboriginal teachers, administrators, researchers; and in certain areas of skills such as the sciences and other areas, the fall-off rate is really quite drastic.

I think you will have received from us a paper that we developed in consultation with a number of aboriginal organizations, both in our university and in the community, trying to set out a strategy from the point of view of a university that is in the downtown part of Winnipeg, where 40% of our surrounding population is aboriginal and 10% of our student population is aboriginal. It does propose what I call a holistic approach to the issue, but one that has a very specific interest to it. It's a blueprint, basically, for action to make aboriginal education a national priority.

We have to first address the need for an ongoing shortage of aboriginal educators, from teachers in K-to-12 to scholars and academics in post-secondary education. There simply are not enough people going into the system. That is compounded by a lack of administration in many aboriginal communities and reserves to make sure that the organization and the development of effective school systems is under well-trained hands. Aboriginal science and mathematics are in high demand but in very low supply, as is a curriculum that includes science and math from an indigenous perspective.

One of the things we are working on at our university is how to meld the experience of wisdom that comes out of indigenous science, the knowledge, with the conventional western science, so we actually can begin to understand very much the very dramatic changes taking place in the world around us. As we work with a major program in access for aboriginal teachers, two programs called WEC and CATEP are both designed to bring people into that area.

We are also, Mr. Chairman, exploring the fact that the financial system presently available to support aboriginal students is not adequate, not so much just in pure tuition terms but in being able to provide the support services--the housing issues, and the other areas of incentive and support--that will be required to bring aboriginal students back into these areas. That also means, as we've seen at our university, a major outreach into the public school system so that we begin to provide the universities of higher education. We all are resource bases and we're public institutions. We have a responsibility to be able to share those resources with the public school system to be able to substantially increase and upgrade the number of aboriginal students graduating from high school and therefore coming into our colleges and universities.

I hope members of the committee will look seriously at this issue. To me, it is one that sits as a priority. If we do it right, we can provide a major asset and development that will serve us well into the future.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, sir.

We continue with the president of the University of Manitoba, Emõke Szathmáry. Welcome, and five minutes to you.

[Dr. Emõke Szathmáry, President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Manitoba]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of Parliament. I am grateful for the opportunity to appear before you today.

As Dr. Axworthy has indicated, my university is very pleased that you're paying attention to the post-secondary sector. We're here speaking collectively on issues we identify as quite important.

I'd like to give the University of Manitoba's perspective on the upcoming federal budget, but I do want to thank the federal government for its ongoing commitment to promoting a more competitive and productive Canada.

To ensure national prosperity within the global economy, Canada has to produce more highly skilled individuals, generate new ideas through innovate research, and transfer knowledge to the workplace. I believe all three of these activities are the natural outcome of a strong post-secondary education system. Certainly the drivers of the 21st century are knowledge and innovation. In my view, a nation that ignores this does so at its own peril.

There are four major points I want to make, and a fifth, if there's time.

The first has to do with investment and infrastructure in human capital. In terms of capital investment, the primary reason behind this is that universities can't teach, students can't learn, and you can't undertake research under canvas—certainly not in our climate; it's impossible.

The challenge for today's universities is twofold. One has to do with the aging campuses and rapidly changing technology, just when there is an increased need and demand for advanced education. Urgent critical investments are required to enhance universities' infrastructure and equipment, as well as related institutional services. The $1 billion post-secondary education infrastructure trust announced in the last budget is a very welcomed step towards assisting with this reality.

The second item I want to emphasize is that institutional operating budgets have to be large enough to provide appropriate instruction and an appropriate learning environment. As we all know, education falls within provincial jurisdictions, but the federal government still has a strategic role to play in making sure the nation has a strong and excellent supply of well-educated people. An educated population is absolutely necessary for national economic growth, prosperity, and international competitiveness.

Traditionally federal investment in post-secondary education has been part of this larger social transfer, but it's been very difficult to discern any link between federal transfers and provincial funding levels for post-secondary education. Overall, constant dollars for student operating and research funding from governments in Canada have decreased by 20% since 1980. It is my view that a dedicated post-secondary education transfer can rectify this enormous shortsightedness. A dedicated transfer needs to be established and adequately funded to assist universities to build and renew institutional and human infrastructure.

The third item has to do with continuing investments in research. A strong research investment is necessary for long-term economic development. I'd like to reference the Minister of Finance by what he said in the last budget: “Scientific research and technological development are essential for higher productivity and a rising standard of living.”

The research-based funding contained in budget 2006, combined with previous investments, is making a difference at Canadian universities, including the University of Manitoba. I'd like to see government move forward with enhanced future investments to improve Canada's productivity and keep our country at the forefront of the world's knowledge-based economy.

There are four elements you will be hearing about from AUCC, if you have not already talked with them. They emphasize the four pillars in this regard.

One has to do with the support for ideas generated through the direct funding of research.

Obviously the second pillar is people. You need people to actually do the work on the ideas. Trained researchers and quality graduate programs are absolutely essential to attract and retain tomorrow's researchers, including those of aboriginal descent, as Dr. Axworthy indicated. Government has to enhance its investment in graduate programs and also in the Canada research programs, because you need the instructors to teach the students, and we have to keep that pool coming forward.

As for the third pillar, research infrastructure, I would like to encourage continued funding in the Canada Foundation for Innovation.

The fourth, the indirect costs of federally funded research, is critical. I believe that something like 24.9% of direct costs are funded, but 40% would be a better investment in terms of covering the indirect costs of federally sponsored research.

The final note I'd like to make in terms of research investment is that although these matching funding programs the federal government initiated through a variety of agencies such as CFI are wonderful, one thing to remember is that provinces like Manitoba don't have the large industrial base to provide some of those matching funds. So even though the Province of Manitoba, for example, will match CFI investments 40%-40%, the universities still have to come up with the remaining 20%, and that's very difficult in a province with a small industrial base.

That, essentially, is my presentation. I hope there's funding available for CANARIE, which is really quite important, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you and the members of Parliament for being here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, Madam President.

We will continue with the president of Red River College, Jeff Zabudsky. Welcome, sir.

[Jeff Zabudsky, President, Red River College]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for the opportunity to speak to you today about technical education.

I represent Red River College, which is the largest institute...[Technical difficulty--Editor]...150 institutions of...in Canada, representing a presence in 900 communities. So there is really an opportunity for the tools of public policy.

I want to go directly to my punch line so I make sure to get my major priority items in.

I would concur with my colleague on the development of a direct transfer. It is an opportunity to establish direct post-secondary education funding that is part of the Canada social transfer and to negotiate a direct transfer that responds to the needs in Manitoba. That is vitally important for us. We know we're in an environment in which health is a major priority. On the other hand, we also recognize the importance of post-secondary education.

The second item would definitely be infrastructure. We look toward the development of a college enhancement fund for facility and equipment modernization. In colleges across Canada, aging physical plants, deferred maintenance, aging program equipment, and older classrooms require upgrading to maintain capacity. Many of our technical institutes and colleges were developed in the 1970s, and that infrastructure is failing at a time when there are more critical needs for skilled people and when technologies need to be upgraded to keep pace with the competitive influences that are there. So second is direct investments in infrastructure.

Then there is research in colleges, which is a different type of research than what is described in universities. It is research that we do directly with industry and business to solve problems and to develop opportunities for commercialization--new products, new services, innovation--that comes through partnerships with industry.

The other item I would focus on is the opportunities to enhance apprenticeship programming. We are confronting a major skills shortage, not just in Alberta but right across this country. In Manitoba right now, there are critical needs for skilled labour, for people who have gone through an apprenticeship program.

I can tell you that we have significant lineups in our institution of young people who want to get into the skilled trades. The federal government has done a fabulous job in raising the profile of the need for skilled tradespeople, and that has created demand. Now we need to address the issues of capacity so that young people who choose to get into the skilled trades have the opportunity to study in those areas.

The other opportunity, again reinforcing what my colleague has said about the importance of aboriginal people, is that we know that the aspirations of the aboriginal community in Manitoba actually are very much towards post-secondary education--in fact, more than in the general population. They want to make their way into post-secondary, but we need to be there to respond in ways that will support them financially, culturally, and with special programs. A focus on aboriginal people is a great opportunity for Manitoba, because it is the only growing home demographic in Canada. Manitoba benefits from a very youthful aboriginal population, and we would love to have support there.

On support for immigrants, Manitoba's population is growing, and it is largely because new Canadians are starting to choose Manitoba as a destination, not just Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. They have special needs for bridging programs and opportunities to get them into the workforce to fully utilize the skills they come with. We believe colleges can serve as wonderful places for new Canadians to bridge into our economy.

We would also look to alleviate student financial barriers by working with the provinces to provide scholarships and loan remediation programs. At Red River College, we want to be an institution of access so that anyone who wants to have an education has the opportunity, but for many the barrier is financial. We look forward to working with the federal government on creating solutions to those financial barriers.

Again, we're very pleased to see you here today, and I'm proud to say that Red River College has a presence right here in Portage la Prairie. We have one of our main campuses here. We are proud to have you here today.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, sir.

The Manitoba Chambers of Commence, executive director, Graham Starmer. You have five minutes, sir.

[Graham Starmer, Executive Director, Manitoba Chambers of Commerce]

First let me thank you all for providing me the opportunity to present to you.

The Manitoba Chambers of Commerce represents 75 chambers and in excess of 10,000 businesses across Manitoba. It is the largest cross-sectoral organization in Manitoba and represents businesses from small to large companies. You've received a brief that we've provided, and I hope you find it interesting.

First, let me say that we have examined the Canadian Chamber of Commerce presentation and support their recommendations, which I understand they previously submitted to you. You will, however, note that while supporting the Canadian Chamber, we challenge you to join us in thinking outside of the box. You will see that this presentation crosses the barriers between business and labour and asks you to think past those policies that government frequently places in silos, and think globally with a national context.

One of those areas of thinking outside of the box is what we in the Manitoba Chambers call the “Great Jobs Agenda”. It's based upon developing a creative capital mindset by judging all policies against the basic standards of whether they are empowering each individual to obtain employment that fully taps into their creative potential. We encourage programs that measure their outputs, not only their inputs. It aligns with those who have skills. We example the aboriginal peoples, immigration. With appropriate jobs, it helps enhance skills to meet the needs of the workforce.

We caution you against simply pursuing an agenda of productivity. For all its considerable benefits, the productivity agenda has flaws. One of the things is that workers often equate productivity with fewer jobs. Such fears are hardly stuff of unifying agendas. And we delude ourselves if we do not see an element of truth to workers' concerns in this regard.

A significant element of productivity is mechanization and technological innovation. And most international economists agree that the vast majority of job reductions are traceable not to outsourcing or globalization, but to consequences of labour-saving technologies. So we caution you not to take a productivity agenda by itself and look at all aspects of the economy in a sort of global face.

We leave you with the contents of the “Great Jobs Agenda” and we hope it will encourage discussion among your committee.

Thank you or your patience, and we encourage you to think outside of the box.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Mr. Starmer. I assure you that no patience is required. It was a very good presentation. Thank you.

Lorne Boguski, on behalf of the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. Welcome. It's nice to see you again. Five minutes to you.

[Lorne Boguski, Urban Vice-President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of Parliament.

I want to first of all identify some of the major issues that confront municipalities. We are another order of government, along with both provincial and federal. One of the key issues we are concerned about is the municipal fiscal imbalance. It is no longer a buzzword across the country, but rather it is a hard fact and a reality. Our FCM convention in June was devoted primarily to addressing this specific issue and the Prime Minister in his speech addressed the issue as well, recognizing that it is a very important issue that municipalities, as well as other orders of government--provincial and federal--must work together and identify their roles and responsibilities so that we can work together in order to make things work across the country.

Municipalities are today being asked to not plan for five years, but to plan for 10 and 20 years. We cannot do that unless we have long-term predictable funding. This is key to the survival of what we can or cannot do. We are an order of government that is being asked to do more. We're now being asked to go into areas that were unknown to us five to ten years ago. We cannot do that, considering the fact that we get less than 8¢ out of every tax dollar, whereas the provincial government gets 42¢ and the federal government gets 50¢.

Our only source of revenue is municipal taxes. They are not growth taxes, and as a result of that we find ourselves really strapped and we cannot do the things and provide the kinds of services that our residents are asking us to do. So we're urging the federal government to engage the provincial, territorial, and municipal governments in a review of the roles and responsibilities, and resources, of all the Canadian municipal governments.

The next topic is also extremely important to us, and that is the municipal rural infrastructure fund, MRIF. We've just completed our final dispersement of funds a couple of weeks ago, where we had $22 million and we had upwards of $500 million of applications. We cannot continue to upgrade our infrastructure based on those kinds of numbers. We received 238 applications requesting over $550 million of support.

We are very much appreciative of the federal government's 2006 budget commitment to increase MRIF by $2.2 billion over five years. However, there are no details forthcoming regarding this as to how or when the funding will in fact be allocated among the provinces. While this was a five-year program, we have dispersed our funds in three years, and much more is actually needed. Therefore, the AMM urges the federal government to move quickly to distribute new resources to the municipal rural infrastructure fund and ensure that long-term predictable infrastructure funding is available to all communities.

The prairie grain roads program is an excellent program that has now ended, and we are also asking the federal government to renew the prairie grain roads program to support grain transportation infrastructure in Manitoba. These are 50¢ dollars, and it was an excellent program, with many rural and municipal roads being upgraded. We feel that the work that has been done has alleviated a lot of the issues and concerns that were identified, and this program was one whereby that did happen. Neighbouring municipalities that identified trucking routes worked together in order to upgrade certain municipal roads, boundary roads, in order for this all to be completed so they can get their grain to market.

I have a couple of other things, quickly. There's the national water supply expansion program, and that is the PFRA, for the boil water orders across the country. This program, again, was an excellent one. We're asking for a commitment to that program.

The final one I want to bring to your attention is the recreation infrastructure program. We're asking for a tripartite infrastructure program for the repair, upgrading, and building of recreational facilities in Manitoba, and also in Canada. Recreation is important, and the wellness of our communities and our residents is based on that program being put in place.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, sir.

We'll continue with the president of Brandon University, Louis Visentin. Welcome, sir. Five minutes to you.

[Dr. Louis Visentin, President and Vice-Chancelor, Brandon University]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to be here to speak with people who are our representatives. It's always great to see them in the city where the west begins. I believe that. It's great to see people out of Ottawa, actually, coming out to the roots to find out how we work.

I always say that if you really want to understand the changing social structure of the country, all you have to do is go down into the subway in Toronto. If you can't understand it, then you really shouldn't be in politics.

But if you want to understand the financial pressures that the universities are about, you can stop in Winnipeg and take a walk through Lloyd's buildings or Emõke's. You could walk through the buildings of almost any university in the country and look at the roofs, the windows, and the laboratories. Think of the Laval bridges, and think about the fact that most of the buildings across the country were built in 1963, when I graduated from St. Francis Xavier. Look at where the students live, and look at where the faculty do the research. Start in Newfoundland and go right through to Victoria, at University of Victoria. The picture is quite the same, except maybe in Alberta—but let me remind you, we're not in Alberta right now.

We have a crumbling infrastructure. I'm going to quote and echo a recent AUCC document about campus infrastructure and deferred maintenance. I think this is a pressing issue and an issue that often is forgotten. We heard briefly about a $1 billion trust, but I don't think that's enough. The document says:

Universities are facing mounting costs for repairs to physical infrastructure on their campuses including, among other things, classrooms, residences and other buildings. In 2000, a study by the Canadian Association of University Business Officers on accumulated deferred maintenance estimated that Canadian universities had a combined ADM bill of $3.6 billion--a legacy from the years of public funding cutbacks in the 1990s. That number is likely considerably higher today. At the same time that many campuses face mounting repair and renewal bills and student enrolment pressures, universities are expected to invest heavily in new learning technologies in order to enhance the student experience and ensure that today's students receive training in much-needed technology skills.

If you look around at new technologies that, like biotech, are just beginning to become profitable, then you see, and that underscores the difficulty of remaining modern internally and externally.

Deteriorating campus infrastructure leads to greater health and safety concerns for students and faculty and staff living and working on campus. Deferred maintenance means classroom and laboratory space may not be fully utilized. Run-down student residences can disrupt the day-to-day living of students, and specialized research equipment can become easily damaged and can hamper students' abilities to learn on specialized equipment. And students with special needs may be unable to fully take part in the university experience.

Deferred maintenance refers to both buildings and research infrastructure in Canada. Both need to be dealt with for the long-term health of the country. Laboratories, communications infrastructure such as CA*net 4, and actual facilities at universities are all part of the infrastructure.

We have things like the Canadian Light Source, TRIUMF, SNO, and reactors. They all fit under the rubric of deferred maintenance. They're all as old as I am.

We need a longer-term national strategy for renewal, maintenance, and renaissance. The health of our teaching, research, and cultural enterprise—and it's a cultural enterprise as well, let me remind you—makes it imperative over the next 20 years. It can't be ignored any longer.

I was reminded when I left the hotel this morning, or last night in Ottawa when I went to the ATM.... It wasn't a regular ATM, and I had to pay $1.50 in order to get the transaction done. We should begin talking again about a kind of Tobin tax to cover some of these educational needs.

Thank you very much for listening to me. I hope it was informative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, sir.

We'll conclude our presentations with Trevor Sprague, who is here representing the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. Welcome, Mr. Sprague.

[Trevor Sprague, Chairman, Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's always a pleasure to come out to Portage la Prairie. I've always enjoyed the hospitality of the people here, and it's great to be here.

Actually, this is my first official function as the new chairman of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, having been sworn in yesterday.

I'll tell you a bit about our organization. We were founded in 1873, so we have a long...[Technical difficulty--Editor]...history in Winnipeg. Our organization is the largest organization representing business in Winnipeg. We have more than 1,750 members, who employ over 80,000 people in the city of Winnipeg.

One of the things we've done on a reasonably regular basis over the last few years—and I know you've seen it in our brief—is conduct a survey of Manitoba business leaders to get an idea as to what these individuals are thinking, since they are key decision-makers. While I know you have all of the details in the brief, I want to point out a few things.

First, this survey was taken in 2005. There was still concern among business leaders that the federal government was not doing enough to contribute to creating a positive business climate in Canada. At that time, 22% felt that way. But with new initiatives, I'm hopeful those numbers will improve, because it's important for government to recognize that creating a positive business climate and creating competitiveness in our country are essential to the success of our nation.

When asked what types of initiatives the government could do to improve the business climate in Canada, 43% of business leaders pointed to taxation, which is an area of great concern to them. When we asked them specifically what types of taxes should be cut, it's interesting to note that after the provincial payroll tax here in Manitoba, the most cited case was the GST. So we would applaud the government for its recent initiatives in reducing the GST from 7% of 6%, and in future to 5%.

We see 2007's budget as a critical turning point for Canada. The initiatives in that budget need to focus on productivity and growth for our country. In terms of the types of changes we would look for in budget 2007, we feel we should be focusing on three areas: tax relief, program spending, and debt reduction.

In the area of tax relief, the Chamber of Commerce has put together a comprehensive policy book, focused on or guided by three principles: one is that our tax system should contribute to economic growth; the second is that our tax system should be transparent, so that it's clearly understood by taxpayers; and third is that our tax system should be accountable, and the government should be publicly accountable for the moneys raised.

In terms of specific tax areas, again we would applaud the government for eliminating the federal capital tax, which was a huge barrier to capital investment. We acknowledge the planned corporate tax reductions that are going to happen over the course of the next two to three years.

We still feel there's more work to be done on the tax relief side. Middle- and lower-income taxpayers should also benefit from personal income tax cuts, as the marginal tax rates for some individuals in those categories can be well in excess of 50% when clawbacks and other tax-related issues are factored in.

We also believe that cities are an important part to this. I know the Association of Manitoba Municipalities mentioned this. We agree that cities need to be given more powers, so they can share in growth taxes and address some of the infrastructure needs facing them today.

In the area of program spending, our primary comment would be that program spending should increase only at the rate the general economy increases. Again we applaud the government for its initiatives in the area of the reallocation of spending, in terms of recent announcements, where $1 billion was reallocated to other priorities. We would encourage the government to continue and enhance that activity.

In the area of debt repayment, we still believe there's a role to be played by the government in setting out a plan to reduce our national debt. We would caution that previous practice has been that governments have had very strong unanticipated surpluses, and we would encourage government to forecast their revenues more accurately, so as not to lead to a situation where Canadian taxpayers are overtaxed for the services they receive.

That's the nature of our brief, and thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Mr. Sprague.

Thank you all for some very excellent and stimulating information for the committee.

We'll begin with Mr. Savage. You have seven minutes.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses. I want to say how nice it is to be here. I've never been to Portage La Prairie before, but by the time I landed yesterday, having listened to Mr. Pallister describe every single farm as we flew in...he knew who owned every farm, and what was being grown there. He didn't tell us how they voted, but looking at the results of the last election, there's not much question. The people here can certainly be proud of their native son; he's an excellent chair of this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Order, Mr. Savage. Get to the point.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Even though he sometimes confuses my statements of fact as a preamble, I'll accept it.

As a point of clarification, the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce, in their presentation, didn't mention the GST as a priority for a cut. Mr. Sprague, with Winnipeg, is it a priority of your members?

[Trevor Sprague]

It is. It was identified by 15% of people surveyed.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

We always hear any kind of tax cut is great—blah, blah, blah—but the fact is that this allocates certain amounts of money. Is it a priority for your members to go to the next per cent, as opposed to reducing personal income tax?

[Trevor Sprague]

I think there's room for both.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Is there a preference for one over the other? We are here to identify priorities, not wish lists.

[Trevor Sprague]

In terms of priorities, I would say that the GST cut would be the priority. That's what business leaders have told us.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

That's not what the other chambers of commerce have told us across Canada.

[Graham Starmer]

We've held out for a half per cent reduction on the personal income tax rate, which we assess at being $1.4 billion. This is consistent with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce position.