Finance Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

That's just for clarification.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Based on your ruling earlier, how is that not expanding the costs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

The scope of the bill is not expanding; the actual dollar amounts within the bill are within the realm of legitimate amendments, but expanding the scope of those dollar amounts is not.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I see, I've got you. All right. It's not the money; it's the—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I just lost my concentration again, with Mr. Wallace interrupting me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Should we take a break then?

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You've lost your concentration? We'll come back in a day.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

No, if the government's intent is real and they want to make an impact, it's nice to say $65 a month, but $65 a month over a 10-month period is $650 times 15%, which I think is 25 cents and is not going to do anything for students. So all I'm trying to do here is actually to do something for the students who incur expenses to go to school. We heard from numerous groups during the pre-budget consultation that they need help. Any type of help is helpful. This is not the best type of help for them, because this is only going to come 12 months after they've incurred the actual expense, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

So $200 times 10 months is a $2,000 credit, and times 15% it is $300. That's nothing compared with what the students are actually incurring in purchasing books; sometimes they're incurring $1,500 to $2,000 per semester for books. So it's not a big deal. If we're going to actually do something, I think this is the right way to do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Madame Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I thought this approach would fit right in with the Liberals' approach of band-aid, ad hoc measures to deal with a serious problem--that is, student access to a university education. The problem we have goes back many years. This is just one more band-aid, following zillions of band-aids by Liberals, so I don't know what their concern is.

Is the intention of this section on credit for the purchase of textbooks to get a certain portion of the cost of textbooks into the hands of students? Is it $65 that they end up with?

[Gérard Lalonde]

The intent of this measure is to provide added assistance to students. It's not intended to cover the full cost of education or the full cost of textbooks. It's intended to provide some assistance. As indicated, it is calculated as $65 per month, for those who qualify for the education tax credit.

There's an example in the budget documents of an individual spending eight months of the year at a Canadian university, claiming $3,200 in education amounts and $4,000 in tuition, for a tax savings of $1,116—and increasing the amount of that assistance by $80.60 as a result of this new textbook tax credit.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

What would this proposal do in dollar terms?

[Gérard Lalonde]

It would increase it by a little over three times—

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Three times.

[Gérard Lalonde]

—from $65 up to $200.

It would also increase the tax expenditures, as indicated in the budget documents, by the same proportion. We're looking at some $135 million and $125 million per year in the budget documents. So you could look at thrice that.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chairperson, I'll just say that since we're left with nothing to do but put band-aids on band-aids, I have to support it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Mr. McKay, then Mr. Del Mastro, then Mr. McCallum, and then Mr. Savage.

I urge committee members to further the debate.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

To make it fairly clear, so that Madame Wasylycia-Leis is clear on the Liberal position, this is a collection of the dumbest band-aids I've ever seen, and this is one of the dumber ones.

I have a daughter in first year at McMaster University.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Conflict.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Exactly, that's why I declared it.

I want to follow the bouncing ball here and actually figure out what her tax credit might be this year. I'm talking $65, multiplied by the number of months referred to in proposed paragraph (a).

Because she started in September, I take it that she gets four months. Is that correct, $65 times four months?

[Gérard Lalonde]

She's just started this year?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

She just started this year.

[Gérard Lalonde]

There are only four months to qualify for this year.