Finance Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Please proceed.

[Connie Roveto]

I appreciate the humour.

My purpose here is to discuss the five-year report on this really unique governance model that was established in 1999 for the Canada Revenue Agency. It is a model of governance that is quite different in that you have a board of management versus a board of directors, which means there is very much a separation of accountabilities.

But as the minister said, it has been an extremely successful experiment in terms of improving operating efficiency, effectiveness, and focus within the management of the organization. And I think to that credit, we see many of our foreign colleagues coming to take a look at this and at the success of the organization.

Based on that, I'd be happy, Mr. Chairman, under your direction to respond to any questions the committee members may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

We commence with Mr. Pacetti--less petulant, I hope.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Ms. Roveto. Thank you for coming before committee.

I believe you were before this committee before?

[Connie Roveto]

Yes, I believe I came before the committee when my nomination was put forward.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Right.

Before we begin, I was chairing the committee then, and I apologize for perhaps not controlling some of the members, but I think some of the members during that session--

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Order, please.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

--needed some control, and now I just want to vouch for that person.

That person is no longer a member of the committee; he is now chairman of the committee. And he is no longer the same person. I think he owes you an apology, but I leave that up to him. In case he doesn't, I'd like to apologize on his behalf.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Order, again.

We can perhaps have a vote on that later.

[Connie Roveto]

From my recollection and having read the minutes of the meeting, I do recall that Mr. Chairman did preface his very vigorous questioning with a very positive comment about my qualifications and the process that had been undertaken. So I take that in context.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

We can look that up, but it was unanimous to have your appointment approved, so I wouldn't worry about that.

[Connie Roveto]

Thank you.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Just in case you weren't sleeping nights in the last year and a half.

Some of the questions may not be pertinent to your role, but you have Mr. Dorais next to you, so I think he can help you out. One is a quick question. I understand Ontario is going to be saving some tax, based on the fact that they've just signed an agreement. Is there any potential for Quebec taxpayers to be saving any money? I refer to Ms. Skelton's presentation when she said there's an advisory committee for small business, a task force. Is any money going to be saved for Quebec taxpayers, whether it be individuals or corporations?

[Connie Roveto]

I think it's appropriate for Mr. Dorais to respond.

[Michel Dorais]

I would venture to say this is a question we should ask the Government of Quebec.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So there haven't been any developments. Okay.

Ms. Roveto, we had the public service and the union here. They had some comments regarding personnel, and they were a bit uncomfortable with how their seniority was handled. Are there any issues on your end? How is the relationship with the employees or the...?

[Connie Roveto]

The board of management has a human resources committee that meets with all aspects of human resources, including union and management. Right now, we are in discussions with management regarding the negotiation of the agreements coming up in 2007. The commissioner, I know, has established very good relationships with the unions across Canada, and meetings between management and the unions occur on a regular basis in a very positive fashion.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Sorry to interrupt, because our time is limited, but I understand negotiations and discussions go on all the time. Does anything come out of those discussions that you're not comfortable with that we can put in our report and you can help us to help you to ameliorate—

your relationship with the union or the employees,

or whoever else?

[Connie Roveto]

I don't see any specific situation. I don't know if the commissioner would like to comment on the union relations, because from our perspective, it's grown in a very positive way. I think one of the indications of that has been the employee satisfaction surveys, which have grown in their positiveness in terms of working at the agency.

Maybe you're being a bit too oblique, but I'm not quite sure what you're driving at.

[Michel Dorais]

The reference might be whether there should be any changes in legislation to improve the situation. Frankly, Mr. Chairman, I'm involved with the unions every week. We just went through a meeting with UTE this week. We spent half a day. We met with the whole executive. It's the same for PIPS. I have rarely seen such positive and ongoing relations. Between the two meetings, we had 59 official meetings with UTE.

So the relationship is good. It's not perfect. We're innovating on staffing. We're innovating on recourse and sometimes we have our disagreements, but at least one thing is going on for all of us, and that is, we can put things on the table and talk them over with the union.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Quickly, before my time is up, Ms. Roveto, from the board of management's point of view, on the collection issue—We heard from Mr. Ralston, I believe, and we heard from the Auditor General. What is the board of management's view on the collection aspect? I'm sure some of my other colleagues will probably address this same question.

[Connie Roveto]

I think the board of management has had the whole collection aspect in its sight since 2003. We have had regular reports from Guy Proulx, who has headed the branch of collections since that time. The audit committee in particular has had a great deal of discussion on that.

It is a very complex issue, and one of the issues that impacts this area is that we have legacy systems that are transaction based rather than information management based. At a board meeting today, I can tell you the board of management, because of our project management policy, did approve $62.8 million in terms of a three-year project to improve collections for a T1.

So it is something that is constantly in our focus. We will continue to monitor this project to ensure that deliverables are on time and on budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Mr. Pacetti.

I want the record to show that I'm descended from the McConochies, by the way.

We continue with Pierre Paquette.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will continue with my question about Manowan. I do not know, Madam, whether you are aware of it, but we had a specific problem at that location. We had the full cooperation of people from the Agency, but I am still concerned about the situation.

I noticed in your presentation that you had a project management policy. According to what I was told yesterday, an audit and investigation pilot project for the Child Tax Benefit was under way. In September, 3,500 files were reviewed and they were processed without involving the claimants. In the end, one-third of the people received a letter concerning an audit and investigation, which means approximately 1,100 of them. In the community of Manowan, whose total population is 2,000, or approximately 250 families, 100 of these families received the letter in question and of these, 30 were unable to reply properly and had their benefits suspended. However, the situation is currently being corrected.

On the other hand, how can a random sample—because it is a random check—yield a result in which 100 families in a community of only approximately 250 families are required to have an audit and investigation?

When such a situation occurs, what happens at the Agency? Does the sampling method remain the same ad vitam aeternam, or will steps be taken to devise procedures that could prevent such a situation from occurring again? There would appear to be discrimination. I don't want to question your motives, but sometimes, in aboriginal communities where relations between Whites and aboriginal people are tense—which is not the case for the Attikamek in Manowan—it may have been an additional contributor to friction.

So what will happen? Clearly, the sample did not yield the results desired by the Agency in terms of a random check of the files.

[Connie Roveto]

Mr. Chairman, I think this is one of those issues that crosses that wall between the responsibilities of the board of management. Because we are actually not allowed to have any access to information about any particular taxpaying group, etc., I'll let Michel answer it.

I can tell you that one of the processes we have instituted is that any communication to me as chair or to any board member is provided to the corporate secretary. We log all that, any communications, and then we also monitor management's action on those communications.

So it comes through to us. We do have a mechanism to ensure, without any access to information, that management is doing what it should be doing according to policies and procedures. In this specific case, because it does get over the wall into more of the program issues, where the word of management has no authority, I'll let Michel respond.