Finance Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One of the issues--and I go again to your report--is with respect to speaking on the board's role, its resources, and what you make sure of in terms of administrative policies.

One of the things that stood out for me was land and buildings. Obviously, from an overall perspective, the federal government faces a tremendous cost with respect to owning or leasing or renting the land. I wonder if the board has made any recommendation whatsoever on savings to be found with respect to real estate, whether it be leased or purchased. Could you pass on any of the recommendations you've made and implemented, and explain how it saved the taxpayers some funds?

[Connie Roveto]

This whole property area is definitely one.... This also includes, by the way, technology, and all other physical assets of the agency that the board of management deals with. In terms of its relationship with PWGSC, this is evolving. We are certainly working with them. In some respects, we have outsourced that to them, which is a common practice in business today. You can outsource certain functions that are not core, and certainly property is not one of them. I do know that from a footprint point of view we are ahead of the curve in terms of the number of employees versus the space allocations. But beyond that, I don't know.

Do you want to add to that, Michel?

[Michel Dorais]

I think essentially Public Works and Government Services is much better placed than the agency to manage real property, so we outsource to them.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

The only other question I have is related directly to what I asked the minister about the Auditor General's report. One of the things that came out in that--and just very quickly, I'll speak to it generally--is the qualification of employees and some of the concerns she indicated. I wonder if you could speak to that and ensure that the agency has indeed set some benchmarks and moved forward in terms of improving that particular area.

[Connie Roveto]

The Auditor General's reports are always of great concern to us. As I mentioned, one of the things we've achieved in terms of our new human resource practices is to enhance our recruitment selection and promotions based on sets of competencies. That is our key focus in terms of individuals.

In terms of the report, I'm not familiar with the specific citation you're making. I'm not sure if Michel is.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

This goes back to the question I asked Michel the last time we met, in terms of ongoing implementation, so it is just a revisit of that. I believe it was in regard to the 2003-04 Auditor General's report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

We'll have to follow up with that at a later time. I am sorry.

Mr. Savage, over to you now for four minutes.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

Ms. Roveto, I do have a question for you as chair of the board of management, but first of all, I want to drill down a bit and ask Mr. Dorais this. One of the areas that we hear about in Nova Scotia—that I've heard about, although I'm sort of an urban MP—from people in the fish industry, is that there is a large underground economy in the fish business, that people land fish, and depending on whether the buyers, the plant owners, pay by cheque or by cash, the price they get is different. Is that something the agency is intimately aware of and following up on a regular basis?

[Michel Dorais]

Mr. Chair, I am vaguely aware of what the member is raising. So I can't really answer the question, but we can come back to that.

Generally speaking, we are very aggressive with everything related to the underground economy. That is what Parliament has been repeatedly asking us to do, so we're trying our best on that.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I have met with some very credible business people in Nova Scotia who are concerned about that. Any information you might be able to forward to me, I'd appreciate.

Does e-filing, the increase in that, save the CRA very much money?

[Michel Dorais]

Not really. The savings are in the order of about $2 per return. But it has allowed us to offer a much wider range of services and it has allowed us to prepare for the future as well. So in that sense, it has been a fantastic investment for the agency, and the taxpayers can receive their cheques, if they are owed a reimbursement, much more quickly. We're way ahead of our standards there.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It's $2 per return.

[Michel Dorais]

Approximately.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay. So it's not a lot.

I had asked the minister a number of questions about policy issues, which she didn't want to give an opinion on.

Can you in general tell me, when the Department of Finance is looking at tinkering with the tax system and bringing in these little tax gimmicks, do they not discuss with CRA what the cost might be, not only to implement them but what the overall cost to the treasury is going to be? Do you guys work hand in hand on those kinds of things?

[Michel Dorais]

Yes, we do. We have accepted that there is a very thick wall around that team that works with the Department of Finance in preparation for a budget, to make sure that measures that are announced are actually doable and implementable. But there are very few people in the agency who are involved.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay.

Ms. Roveto, my last question is for you. As the chair of the board of management, could you perhaps share with us, is there a number one priority for you right now that the agency can improve upon but hasn't yet that you want to see done during your term?

[Connie Roveto]

Certainly the issue of revenue collection and the arrears is one, as we've discussed, that has been on the board of management's agenda over the last few years, and continues to be, and we will follow through on that.

Certainly there are a number of large projects, including an enterprise risk management project. We're looking at how various risks within the agencies might impact others, and how we mitigate those risks, since this is such a crucial operating environment for the government and for the country in many respects.

There are the two ongoing issues. How do we do our business? There are two, or actually three, things that help us do our business: the financing of the agency; people; and technology. Certainly ensuring that we have the right people and the right technology to meet the future challenges of the Canadian economy is something that is always at the forefront in our minds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, Mr. Savage.

Mr. Wallace for four minutes.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming. I am sorry I missed the presentation, but I did read it while others were asking questions.

My questions are really about performance and the connection between you and the actual folks who do the work and the minister.

We'll start with collections. We heard from the minister that we are at about 5% in terms of accounts receivable, and so on. Does the board then deal with that kind of issue in terms of setting targets for CRA on annual basis, on how much should be collected in terms of a percentage basis and how it might be collected?

So, one, are there targets, and two, do we use outside agencies to do the collections, or is it all in-house, and have we ever considered using outside agencies to do the collections?

[Connie Roveto]

I believe you were out of the room, but revenue collection is constantly before the board of management, and it is a very complex issue. For example, one of the limitations is our legacy systems and technology that do not facilitate the collection.

At a board of management meeting today, we approved $62.8 million for a three-year project to improve the collections for T1s. We are also looking at how to improve collections for T2s. That will be a subsequent project, which we will continue to monitor, and how management goes about improving its collections. At this stage, it's a bit early for us, other than to manage the deliverables and the budget, to know the payback.

We've had separate projects. In 2005, I believe we had a project specifically targeted to put extra budget dollars towards collections. We made some progress there, so it is an ongoing issue.

The one thing I've learned about collections is that it is not one issue; it's different, depending on whether it's GST, T1. There are different issues, and you have to break it down into those components to really look at it. We are constantly moving forward in our efforts in that respect.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Again along the lines of performance and management, one of our Liberal friends was asking, are we going to lose jobs in Summerside with this change in the program?

[An hon. member]

Do you actually care?

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I am going to ask that question.

I've worked in business before, and obviously things change, programs change, and businesses change. From a business model, where does saving jobs...? If I went back to my taxpayers in Burlington and said, we've cut the program, but we still kept the jobs because they were there.... I don't care what other people have promised or not.

I want to know from your perspective, where does the employee fit into the picture, in terms of the criteria regarding whether or not it's an effective program?

[Connie Roveto]

Mr. Chairman, we are constantly focused on whether we have the right quantity and quality of employees throughout the agency to do the work today and tomorrow, because the nature of the work is going to change. We recognize that the agency is not a business; it's not a for-profit business. We have to look at it within the whole government context.

In terms of jobs, certainly what we have found in recent years is that we can increase the types of business. For example, in the Ontario project, we're going to be collecting T2. This is one area where we create jobs.

This year, we've undertaken the universal child care benefit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

I'm sorry, Mr. Wallace, you were out of time awhile ago, and only through the extreme generosity of the chair were you allowed to continue.