Evidence of meeting #24 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was position.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William R. Young  Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament
Allan Darling  Senior Special Advisor, Parliamentary Budget Officer Project, Library of Parliament
Jacques Sabourin  Acting Director General, Parliamentary Information and Research Service, Library of Parliament
Joe Wild  Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Corporate Priorities, Planning and Policy Renewal Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Marc O'Sullivan  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Special Projects Secretariat, Privy Council Office
Benoit Robidoux  General Director, Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Katharine Rechico  Chief, Expenditure Analysis and Forecasting, Fiscal Policy Division, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

February 13th, 2008 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'll call the meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are following up on the creation of a parliamentary budget officer, as provided for in the Federal Accountability Act.

We have with us, from the Library of Parliament, Mr. William R. Young, the parliamentary librarian. You have with you some other guests, whom I would ask you to introduce to the committee. With that, we await your presentation.

First of all, though, I want to apologize, as I know you didn't have a lot of time to prepare. Nonetheless, you're here, and that's great. We appreciate your being here. We have you for our first hour and will open the floor to your presentation to the committee, and then follow it up with a round of questioning.

With that, the floor is yours, sir.

3:35 p.m.

William R. Young Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to meet with the committee today and to provide you with a status report on our efforts to establish a parliamentary budget officer within the Library of Parliament.

I have invited Jacques Sabourin, Acting Director General, Parliamentary Information and Research Service,

and Allan Darling, special advisor on the parliamentary budget officer. I will tell you that Allan was a former deputy secretary to cabinet, deputy secretary of the Treasury Board, and, most recently, he has been working with the World Bank in advising developing nations on their budgetary and fiscal requirements.

We're here today to listen to your advice and recommendations regarding the organization and work of the PBO, and my colleagues will help me answer any questions you may have.

In my efforts to establish the parliamentary budget officer, I have tried to be consistent in following four guiding principles:

1) To implement the law as set out in the Parliament of Canada Act;

2) To provide the non-partisan service to parliamentarians that has been, and continues to be, the hallmark of the Library of Parliament for over 130 years;

3) To strengthen Parliament's institutional capacity to hold government to account—in this case, by giving Parliament access to additional expertise on economic and fiscal issues;

4) To ensure that parliamentarians continue to receive the best possible service from the whole Library.

It is important to note, above all, that our efforts have been guided by the legislation and our mandate to establish an office that is independent and non-partisan, providing services to both Houses and all parties.

You are all aware that the Library of Parliament plays a unique role in the provision of professional, non-partisan services to members of the House and to senators, and in support of your work. As this work evolves and adapts to change, the library must also evolve if it is to meet its overarching commitment to effectively serve Parliament and you, its clients.

Part of the library's evolution must be integrating the PBO within the organization to provide enhanced advice and analysis on the state of the economy, the nation's finances, and the expenditures of government. Locating the officer within the Library of Parliament means that members of the House and senators can rest assured that the officer will function as their servant, operating within the library's mandated approach and professional ethos in its service to Parliament.

Appointing the officer and creating this capacity allows the library to build on the strong foundations of expertise we already have in place. It avoids duplication of effort or resources and provides generally for economies of scale wherever possible. In short, it provides us with an opportunity to strengthen our services to you.

While some of the functions associated with the officer will enhance the library's ability to do what it already does, there is an important new element—one that provides Parliament with a new dimension and value-added in exercising fully its role in overseeing the government's fiscal plan.

As you know, this means explaining the assumptions underlying that plan and assisting parliamentarians in asking relevant questions relating to the executive's economic and fiscal forecasts.

I do not think the PBO should provide an alternative fiscal forecast to the one produced by the Department of Finance. Several reputable Canadian forecasting firms already do this, and adding yet another forecast would not improve service to parliamentarians.

I foresee the PBO taking a lead role with parliamentarians to provide a much more strategic approach that would enhance parliamentarian's understanding of the underlying factors affecting fiscal forecasting and the reasons the executive is moving in a particular direction.

I anticipate that the work of the PBO would focus on higher-level analysis that would improve parliamentarians' understanding of alternative public policy options that might influence future government expenditures.

Members are aware of the assistance already provided by the research branch staff during your review of the expenditure estimates tabled by the government. I anticipate the PBO will provide leadership in developing initiatives to tailor the presentation of information on proposed expenditures to better reflect the specific interests of parliamentarians.

Costing proposals of interest to parliamentarians is another role currently performed by the library's research services. With the additional resources available to the PBO, I would anticipate a significant improvement in the transparency and credibility in this area.

When the PBO function was included in the Parliament of Canada Act, the Treasury Board provided for an annual budget to support the officer, and this currently sits at $2.7 million. Like any new operation, the PBO requires phasing in, and the library's estimates for 2008-09 include $1.6 million of the total allocation for the initial implementation of these new services to Parliament.

Under the leadership of the officer we foresee building capacity in two distinct areas. First is an economic and fiscal analysis capacity that will be staffed by experts in economic modelling and fiscal forecasting. This will enable parliamentarians to obtain access to independent analysis of the state of the economy.

The second capacity, expenditure analysis, will provide broader expertise on the government's expenditure program. This will be integrated into our current work for all parliamentary committees and the staff resources that are currently allocated to them. Individual requests from parliamentarians or committees for costing proposals or costing of legislation will be prepared by the PBO, again in cooperation with our current research services staff.

The amended Parliament of Canada Act, subsection 79.1(3), provides that the Governor in Council may select the parliamentary budget officer from a list of three names submitted in confidence by a high level committee formed and chaired by the parliamentary librarian through the leader of the government in the House of Commons.

Based on the interpretation of the PBO mandate and the approach to implementing it that I have outlined for you, a job description for the officer was forwarded for approval and classification to the Privy Council Office in December 2006.

I convened a discussion group in January 2007, whose members were nominated by the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians and represented all parties in both Houses. They assisted greatly in defining the skills and experience that candidates should possess to serve Parliament well and interact effectively with parliamentarians.

In late July 2007, I received notification that the position had been classified as a GCQ-5. This classification is roughly equivalent to an EX-3, normally a director general level in the public service.

Following a competitive bidding process, the library contracted with the executive search firm Ray & Berndtson on August 28, 2007. Led by their senior Ottawa partner, Michelle Richard, they conducted an exhaustive national search process for qualified candidates.

On November 30, 2007, I convened a blue ribbon selection panel committee, which was composed of Maria Barrados, the president of the Public Service Commission; Don Drummond, the senior vice-president and chief economist of the TD Bank; William G. Knight, former commissioner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada and a nominee of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians; and Allan Darling, with me here today, who is my special adviser on the PBO project.

As required by the statute, the selection committee reviewed eight of the 24 candidates who had been identified through the preliminary search process. At that time, the committee identified an additional six candidates to be approached for the position. The committee held interviews on December 20, 2007, and on its behalf I forwarded the committee's recommendations to the government House leader on December 21, 2007.

Throughout this process, I have benefited greatly from the comments and advice of the Honourable Peter Milliken, Speaker of the House of Commons, and the Honourable Noël Kinsella, Speaker of the Senate. As you know, they are jointly responsible for the operations of the Library of Parliament under my direction and therefore ultimately for the PBO.

Your invitation to appear before the committee obviously is a timely one. Selection of the PBO is a decision of the government, and I am currently waiting for the decision.

Thank you. We'd be happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

I have two additional documents that I would like to have distributed, please. The first is a chronology of planning and implementation activities undertaken by the library to help highlight the steps that we have taken to fulfill our mandate, and the second is a report prepared for me by Ray & Berndtson on the recruitment process for the parliamentary budget officer.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for that.

We will now start our round of questioning. I've had a request to go to five minutes rather than seven minutes on the first round. I seek the committee's will on that.

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I hear consensus, so we'll start with Mr. Pacetti. The floor is yours for five minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Young, for coming forward. I don't know if we'll have enough time, because it looks like we're probably going to want to get our opinions in and also ask questions. I'm going to try to do a little bit of both.

First of all, we had requested that everybody appear at the same time, and you're here, I think, because you didn't want to be at the same table. So I have a problem with the structure in terms of my interpretation or my understanding that this was going to be an independent parliamentary budgetary office, and I think the word “independent” is missing. That's where I'm having a little bit of difficulty.

Can you help me out on that? Is it supposed to be independent? Is the Library of Parliament not an independent entity and that is why you were uncomfortable sitting at the table with the Finance officials?

3:45 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

The Library of Parliament reports through the Speaker. It's a parliamentary body. The others report through the executive. They're governmental bodies. As an officer of Parliament, it's more appropriate that I appear on my own. It's not a question of not wanting to do anything.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

The reason I'm getting to that is because you want the parliamentary office to be the sole reporting entity, yet you don't want it to be independent.

3:45 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

It is independent within the library. The library is an independent institution. The library serves members of Parliament from all parties and in both chambers.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

But the Finance officials or the government does not react in that way. It does have to react on a partisan level at certain times. Do we not need information that is non-partisan?

3:45 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

That's the purpose of the library. We function basically on the same basis as the Clerk of the House of Commons and the Clerk of the Senate, to serve you.

June, who is sitting up at the front of the table, and Alexandre work for the Library of Parliament to provide you with advice in your functions as members of the finance committee. That's the overall aim and role of the Library of Parliament. We do not report to the government. We are an independent organization designed to help parliamentarians do their job.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

You say here:

I do not think that the PBO should provide an alternative fiscal forecast to the one produced by the Department of Finance.

3:50 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

Should not.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Should not.

Then do you want the parliamentary budget office to be part of Finance?

3:50 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

No. What I'm saying is that we should not necessarily build the capacity within the library, because there are forecasting firms that already do this. So what we were going to do was independently contract with the forecasting firms once the officer is in place and the requirement has been determined about the nature of the forecasting. There are different ways of doing this. One would be to contract on a longer-term basis with one firm and another might be to contract with several firms to provide information and data on the areas in which they have expertise.

Allan, do you have anything--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

I don't mean to interrupt, because our time is limited, but I'm trying to understand the way you envision it.

I want to get my two cents in here too, because when I was chairing the committee we did a lot of work on this. I felt that the independent budgetary experts or consultants were actually quite useful, and they had certain information or a certain take on things that the Finance officials or maybe even the Library of Parliament wouldn't otherwise have. I believe what you just said is the correct approach, so I would have somebody or a group of people involved with the library, but the library should also have a certain amount of budget to contract independent forecasters who have the expertise and are already doing that type of work. That's the way I envision it.

What I still don't understand is how your relationship is...the Library of Parliament and the Finance officials.

3:50 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

We're independent of the Finance officials.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

No, but how do you envision the parliamentary budget office, the relationship? Because, again, and I'm quoting from your paper:

I do not think that the PBO should provide an alternative fiscal forecast to the one produced by the Department of Finance.

3:50 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

I'm going to let Allan explain this.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We'll allow his answer and then the time will be gone.

Go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Allan Darling Senior Special Advisor, Parliamentary Budget Officer Project, Library of Parliament

Very briefly, the conceptual thinking is that there are many people and many government agencies, including the Bank of Canada and the Department of Finance, who already provide Parliament with fiscal forecasts and the state of the economy. The conception that we have tried to develop, in defining how the PBO should approach the role, is to work at explaining to parliamentarians the underlying assumptions that form the basis for those positions and to point out, in their own view and based on their own independent analysis of the economy, where there are areas that parliamentarians should probe in order to understand better whether there's an alternative interpretation that could be put on the forward projections that are contained in the fiscal documents of the government.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you.

Monsieur Crête, five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Mr. Young, your presentation contains the following statement:

Your invitation to appear before the committee obviously is a timely one. Selection of the PBO is a decision of the government and I am currently waiting for the decision.

Am I right in thinking that you would welcome a motion from the committee asking that the government appoint this person as quickly as possible so that he or she can be involved in the entire budget process we are heading into and that, given the possibility of an election in the near future, you would like to see this person appointed before that happens?

3:50 p.m.

Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament

William R. Young

I submitted my recommendations to the leader of the government in the House of Commons. That is as far as my responsibility goes. I am waiting, just like you are. That said, if you want to adopt a motion, you can take the initiative and do that.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

The budget will be tabled on February 26, and the new budget cycle will begin the next day. Do you feel that it would be important for the person to be appointed before the new budget cycle begins? Would that be a proactive and positive decision in your view?