Finance Committee on June 9th, 2008

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You talk about recovery; what do you mean by that?

[Conrad Sauvé]

It refers to assistance provided to victims in the aftermath of an emergency. We just had to shut down our offices in New Brunswick, following the floods. In this context, I'm referring to caring for victims.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

From what I gather, therefore, you would make additions to the act, all the while preserving its spirit.

[Conrad Sauvé]

Absolutely.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Are there any other comments on this subject?

[Ruth MacKenzie]

Well, I wouldn't have any concrete suggestions, but of course I think anything that recognizes the value and contribution of volunteers of this country, outside of simply saying that you recognize the value and contribution of volunteers in this country, would be helpful in recognizing the contribution they make. I just think that this is a small slice; I think it's something very small to recognize the contributions of volunteers who play a vital role in our communities, particularly rural and remote communities. It would have a huge impact.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you.

If there are no other comments, I'd like to ask Mr. Gingras a question.

This is my understanding of the explanations you provided earlier. Currently, and this remains unchanged, the first $1,000 is simply not declared and is not taxable. You are adding a first increment of $1,000 for the first 100 hours worked and a second increment of $1,000 for 200 hours worked. Is that how you interpret the legislation?

[Yves Gingras]

Based on our understanding of the bill in its current form, if one is entitled to a deduction, one cannot obtain an exemption for $1,000. The two measures are mutually exclusive, one cannot benefit from those two measures at the same time. An organization can recognize the number of hours worked, without providing remuneration. Under such circumstances, and this ties in to the point raised by Mr. Pacetti, a signed form indicating the number of hours worked serves that purpose. There is no amount of money that is taken into account.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Once this bill is drafted, if the legislator wanted to maintain the non-taxable $1,000 for every 100 hours, the tax credit and so on and so forth, how could this be provided for in the act, how could this be included? Would this require significant changes?

[Yves Gingras]

In fact, I would not wish to advise you on that point. It's a rather technical issue which falls outside my purview. However, I believe such a change would be a technical change...

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

We would have to make sure that the bill is drafted in such a way as to consider that.

[Yves Gingras]

Indeed. It's not how the bill is written nor understood right now. Nor is that how we have calculated costs.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Okay, that's fine.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Wallace.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for coming today. And thank you for volunteering your time and thanks to those volunteers you represent.

I have a number of questions. Just so you have two pieces of background information on me, I was a councillor for a municipality--Burlington, which now has 160,000 people in it--that has a composite fire force. And there are issues between the career firefighters and the volunteer firefighters. Being on the council side, I have some understanding of what some of those issues are.

The other piece you should know is that I also was involved with a children's charity that looked after physically disabled kids. We had lots of volunteers who did respite care on weekends for parents with physically disabled kids, and often the kids had other issues, such as developmental disabilities. It was a tremendous amount of work, and it didn't save any lives, to be frank with you, but it probably saved some families, some marriages, and some other things that are very important.

So the first issue I want to discuss is that I haven't made up my mind on this, to be perfectly frank with you, because I have some difficulty with our representing a certain segment or type of volunteers.

Ms. MacKenzie, you mentioned the training and everything they go through. But from your organization's point of view, are we not playing favourites here at the Government of Canada in terms of picking and choosing which volunteers are more deserving of a tax credit than others?

You used some examples on which I might agree with you. Coaching your local kids hockey team might not be as dangerous or as taxing, but there are other volunteer activities in this country that are very taxing on individuals and on families. Are we not running the danger, as a federal government, of picking and choosing one type of volunteer over another?

[Ruth MacKenzie]

I think all volunteer work is essential to our communities, and if we had a volunteer strike for even a single day, our communities would be at risk. We couldn't police this country without volunteers. We wouldn't have minor league sports. We wouldn't have elected officials.

So in answer to your question, yes, I think that is one side of the coin. But I also think there are some unique issues with the level of risk that emergency services volunteers undertake that are significantly different from those of someone who does respite service. And you know, to that family, that is absolutely essential--and you're right, it does save the context of a family unit. But I think this is unique. Again, people are expected to drop everything at a moment's notice. They need to have articulated agreements with their employers regarding their ability to do that when they're on call. That involves the employers in their volunteer work, and I think that's critically important.

I could go on.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You may not have been with them at the time or have been here, but do you know if your organization presented when the previous bill was here a couple of years ago?

[Ruth MacKenzie]

No, we did not.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You did not. Okay, thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Dunderdale.

Thank you for coming.

You highlighted something I didn't know about, which was that if you get paid by a government agency, there is a deduction available. You don't think that is fair. You're in favour of this bill, which adds another type of deduction for an additional type of volunteer--

[Malcolm Dunderdale]

It's for first responders.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

--because they're a first responder and are not getting paid by a public body.

Are we not doing exactly what you didn't like in the previous one? Are we not just adding another layer of special treatment for another group? Isn't that what you were opposed to in the first place when you came here?

[Malcolm Dunderdale]

Well, as a first responder, I'll personally say from our organization's standpoint, it's pretty darned hard for us to get volunteers who are going to put their lives on the line to save others. It's really difficult for us. And any incentive that we could possibly give them--and hopefully the government would, too--would make it much easier for us to bring on board and retain these members. I think it would be a wonderful thing to actually be able to provide....

I'm not talking about what I discussed earlier about $1,000; I'm saying that for a paid person who earns say $10,000, one thousand dollars of that would deductible. I'd like to see equity across the board between paid volunteers and non-paid volunteers.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Sauvé, you have two amendments. Has your organization provided those amendments to the mover of the motion?

[Conrad Sauvé]

I'm sorry...?

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Has your organization provided those two amendments to the mover of the bill?