Finance Committee on June 9th, 2008

[Conrad Sauvé]

No.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

No. So we haven't seen them here yet.

There were ten points in the last bill, which is virtually the same except that they basically changed the amount of money and the number of hours. That's basically what they've changed. There were ten points.

Can you apply your amendments to one of those ten points that were previously there?

[Conrad Sauvé]

I haven't seen the ten points.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So no. Okay.

In your recommendation, are you doing a better job, in your mind, of defining what an emergency individual situation is, or one who is involved in an emergency?

If a child goes missing in my community and my family or my neighbours go out and volunteer to look for that young person—we'll assume it's a young person—for 100 hours, is that an emergency situation? And 100 hours is a lot, I'll grant you that, but I'm just using a wild example. Would they qualify, do you think?

[Conrad Sauvé]

In the search and rescue case they would qualify, but the point we were referring to is not that one. We're not in search and rescue. The aspect we're referring to is enlarging the preparation. We're doing a lot of disaster management and intervention. We cannot know when a disaster occurs in Canada, but we know that the mitigating effect of being prepared to respond is a key thing. So we're training people everywhere to be prepared.

Managing a shelter is not something you want to improvise, and presently we have agreements with municipalities in terms of providing those services. So there's a different twist for us in terms of also within our own volunteer organization for the role in an emergency. We're recruiting those volunteers differently. There's an obligation when we get into an agreement, and there's an obligation in time. But just as the other field, the preparation side is the key component.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You're going to provide those amendments to us?

[Conrad Sauvé]

Yes.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Buda, I have just a quick question.

One of the issues we dealt with at the city—and I don't think I'm hiding anything here or it's anything new—was that the career firefighters have a union and they would like to see the end of volunteer firefighting in my community so that those members who would qualify would be unionized and build their numbers. Is that something, in terms of how we treat volunteer firefighters, that FCM has dealt with at all from a policy perspective? Or would I be better off asking the chief of fire chiefs that kind of question?

[Michael Buda]

I think I'd respond by making a couple of points. The first one is that rather than asking the fire chief, probably it would be best to ask the head of council or the council members who actually have to raise taxes to pay for those services. They're the ones who really need to have the final decision.

Of course the union is interested in increasing members—that's their job—but they don't have to actually raise property taxes to do so. So I think that's how I'd answer the question.

I'd point out that that issue has existed for 50 or 60 years. I don't think this is going to change it significantly one way or the other.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Atamanenko.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Thank you very much.

It's actually quite interesting. Often I sit at this table on the agriculture committee with my honourable colleague from Malpeque, whose bill this is, so it's a pleasure for me to speak about it and ask some questions. I did speak on it on February 1.

I'm going to throw out some comments and then maybe some questions and get some feedback from you folks.

I'm looking at this from the side, and it seems to me that this is really a good-news bill. There's nothing partisan here, and it just requires some political will to make it happen and to try to simplify it. I understand what Mike is saying. When you look at “other volunteers” in the definition, maybe as a government we just have to decide what our criteria are, stand by them, and accept the consequences--make that cut and decide that these are people who risk their lives often. They react to disasters.

The fact I learned listening to you, Mr. Dunderdale--that for each dollar expended, there's a $37 saving to the government and to the taxpayer--is huge. It's huge. Because these people are risking their lives and helping people, we're actually saving money.

Mr. Buda, we know that FCM has talked about the downloading of senior government services to the municipalities, that often they can't cope with the cost, and that our volunteers are picking up the slack.

I don't quite understand, as I mentioned in my speech in February, it has taken.... It was put before Parliament six years ago, and reintroduced, and we're still talking about it and waiting for another extension. I just don't understand why we don't get this done. I would like your comments on that.

I'd like to close my brief comments with some feedback I've had from my riding in British Columbia from just one person. He's Mr. Munro Pickering, who is with the Kootenay Boundary Regional Fire Services. He said:

I'm writing regarding the proposed tax incentives for volunteers in Canada. I have been a volunteer firefighter for 20-plus years and a search and rescue member and manager for 20 years. Many members spend a large sum of money on equipment they use in these endeavours

--and you mentioned, sir, that you have volunteers who use their privately owned vessels for this--

and are on call 24/7. Also, much time is spent fundraising, whereas this time would be better spent training. Any tax deferments or incentives would be gratefully appreciated and will lead to more members to provide the services needed.

You know, it just seems logical. I can go on and on, but I won't. I don't quite understand why it's taking so long. I'd like your comments on that and on anything else that I have said.

Maybe we can just go around the table. I'll stop.

Mr. Sauvé, do you have any comments to make?

[Conrad Sauvé]

No. Well, I don't have any comments on why it takes so long. I'll let you do your work on that.

[Michael Buda]

I plead the fifth as well on that.

[Ruth MacKenzie]

Yes, I would agree. I certainly do think this is a good-will bill. I think it's something fairly small that could have a huge impact and demonstrate, in a very big way, this government's support for volunteers.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Mr. Dunderdale, would you comment?

[Malcolm Dunderdale]

I think there's one thing the government might need to get a feel for. I can appreciate this has gone on for a long time, I know, but when those who make the decisions look at this globally and think, “My God, how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of volunteers do we have in our country?”, well, at the end of the day, this doesn't apply to all of them. At this particular point in time, it actually applies to very few first responders, people who are out of pocket buying what I mentioned to you earlier.

I won't go on again; I'm just basically repeating myself.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Would it be logical or a good idea to somehow get an idea of the number? You mentioned that it's not 5,000 people; it's only 400 people who would qualify. Would it be in our best interests to have a rough idea from all of the emergency organizations of what are we looking at? Maybe this is one of the reasons there have been obstacles, because--

[Malcolm Dunderdale]

Well, there's been a delay.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Maybe there's been a delay because government is saying we can't afford this huge cost. Well, maybe the cost isn't as high as we thought it was. Would you think it would be a good recommendation to try to pinpoint it across this country, if we can do it?

[Michael Buda]

These stats come from the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs. They report that there are 84,000 volunteer firefighters and fire officers. That obviously would not include all the classifications under this bill. Ambulance workers and search and rescue technicians are also included. I have no idea what those numbers are, but I wouldn't imagine that it would reach above 100,000.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Are there any other comments?

[Malcolm Dunderdale]

Yes. Sitting in the rescue centre playing cards doesn't count. You're on a search and rescue incident, you're training, you're educating children in schools, or in our case you're educating the voting public in Canada. That's it.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

So basically the logical steps would be to develop some criteria, find out who this should apply to, and get on with it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Pacetti.