Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2009

[Allison Walker]

We don't know precisely what that is. To safeguard the treasury on that, what you could do is limit it. You could limit it by taxpayer or affiliated group. You could limit it by a certain percentage. What I threw out in the discussion was a 50¢ dollar.

It would only be once you've reinvested in your business. So if I reinvested $10 million in my business, which is a good thing for my business, for the economy, and for jobs, only then could I obtain some of these tax credits back through my tax return. So we could limit it by taxpayer or by affiliated group, and we could also put a cap on it by year.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay.

Mr. Nabuurs and Mr. Mutch, I had a chance to meet with my beef producers a few weeks ago. They shared with me a strategy document that has been built in Nova Scotia and that is now starting to circulate around, and now New Brunswick also is talking about doing a strategy. We have a bunch of these different strategies going on.

One of the things I understand is that having gone through that whole consultation, Nova Scotia couldn't get any money to actually implement the strategy. What is your sense that the provinces, at least in the Maritimes, the Atlantic provinces, could get together on a strategy like that for the red meat sector? What kinds of dollars do you think it would take? Could all four provinces get on stream with a strategy like that?

[Mike Nabuurs]

We're trying to get a sense of how many dollars we think it would take. We have a number in our document here for P.E.I. We're suggesting that we start with $5 million a year. That's based on our livestock and grain strategy, which is still being developed. So to answer your question about how many dollars it would take, we're still in the process of trying to determine that, I guess.

You're right in that there are a number of other strategies happening at the same time. The Maritime pork council, the pork sector, seems to be coming together, perhaps a little better than the beef side of things. I think that's an important part of what has to happen so that these strategies do come together and are all pointing in the same direction. The four federations of agriculture have just signed a new agreement. We are now the Atlantic Federations of Agriculture. We are all trying to work together and to point in that same direction. In the industry, we have some work ourselves in order to make sure we're all meshing, but we're doing that to try to complement what we think is going on at the provincial level.

On what we're seeing with the MOU that was signed by the ministers of agriculture, I think everyone is realizing that the Atlantic region is too small for each individual province to tackle these issues on their own. That's why we are starting to come together a little better. I think the solution does have to lie in an Atlantic regional approach to come up with the answer.

[Ernie Mutch]

And we are working on an Atlantic brand as well now. That's being developed, and it's something that the region has worked on cooperatively. It's the only federal beef plant we have in the Maritimes, and the three maritime provinces have worked cooperatively on that as well. So there is some work being done.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

We'll go to Ms. Leslie, please.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all of you for your presentations.

My name is Megan Leslie. I'm the member of Parliament for Halifax and I have a few questions. I would like to start with the New Brunswick Federation of Labour. In truth, I only have one question, but I'll be asking it to different groups.

So to the Federation of Labour, regarding your three recommendations, I'm wondering how you would describe Canada's economic future in twenty years if these recommendations were implemented.

[Michel Boudreau]

That is a very good question.

As far as pensions are concerned, had the federal government not brought in the Canada Pension Plan in the 1970s, today's seniors would not be receiving CPP benefits. They would have to rely on the money they earned while they were working. On this front, our demands are important and completely realistic.

This morning, I spoke with David Plante. I consider him a colleague, even though we have had differences of opinion. I didn't expect to be discussing pensions but there was an article on the subject in this morning's Globe and Mail. The argument made was that employers should not be left to shoulder all of the burden. In the opinion of the Federation, the federal government must plan for the future so that 20 years down the road, workers, in particular women, will receive a pension that affords them a decent standard of living, not one that relegates them to the ranks of the poor. I agree with that position.

The New Brunswick Federation of Labour has never been opposed to the idea of helping businesses. However, businesses that make a profit should pay more. As for those that are not earning a profit, they could receive some assistance for a certain period of time. However, if a company does receive some assistance, I would hope that the salaries of its workers will have improved in twenty years' time. If , twenty years down the road, its workers still earn only minimum wage and continue to live below the poverty line, then our efforts today will have been pointless. Would you not agree?

Mr. Dufour asked Mrs. Dallaire some questions about child care services. On a personal note, my wife is a nurse, but she only works part time. Twenty years ago, we needed nurses, and the situation hasn't changed much today. The issue wasn't so much the salary that nurses and persons like myself who worked in nursing homes earned, but rather trying to find someone to care for our children. It's no simple matter finding someone in the private sector to care for your children 12 hours a day while you are at work, or to find someone to care for them 12 hours a day on Saturdays and Sundays. It's not something that brings in a great deal of money, especially when there is only one child to care for. Hospitals and nursing homes in New Brunswick do not close their doors on Saturdays and Sundays.

In twenty years' time, I think there should be public day cares in New Brunswick and across Canada, to help workers. If people don't work, they can't help businesses in New Brunswick or throughout the Maritimes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

I'm sure Ms. Dallaire agrees with you.

I would actually like to pose the same question to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

[Brock Carlton]

Thanks. It's an interesting question.

Obviously we believe very strongly that investing in cities and towns and communities across this country is one of the best investments a country can make for creating a strong country. If you look at what we're talking about, we're really not talking about huge new investments; we're talking about sustaining what is already on the table. We're talking about developing national plans and strategies for housing and transportation, for example, and we're also talking about developing a plan for infrastructure so that as the economy strengthens over the years, we can work away at the $123 billion infrastructure deficit.

What does that all accumulate to in twenty years? It means a country based on cities and towns and communities that are economically viable, environmentally sound, and socially cohesive.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

To the Prince Edward Island Federation of Agriculture, in particular concerning your recommendation on energy, this summer I bought some potatoes here on the Island, as one does when one is on the Island, but it was interesting because it said on the package that it was “packaged by wind”, and they had a windmill right on the farm that would actually power their packaging plant. I am wondering what your thoughts are. If this energy policy were adopted, what would things look like in twenty years?

[Mike Nabuurs]

Hopefully we would still see at least as many farms as we see today, but I'm not sure that in twenty years we will see that many. We'd like to be able to see those farms that are still there be profitable and continue to provide healthy and sustainable food to the maritime region.

We think there is tremendous potential in wind energy and in a number of other alternative energies as well, but as many of you know, Prince Edward Island tends to have a little more offshore wind and so there is tremendous potential there. But the issue farmers are facing is that there are some funding possibilities on larger-scale projects, but having the ability to get the funding to put smaller-scale on-farm projects in place is very difficult. So if there were a policy at the federal level to ensure that farmers had access to dollars to implement those projects at the farm level, that could show tremendous benefits, and we could learn a lot from smaller-scale projects, which could then perhaps become bigger-scale and help offset some of the huge energy costs that our farmers are facing on P.E.I.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Does the federation have sufficient energy efficiency...? Is that something you guys have been looking at--federal projects for energy efficiency?

[Mike Nabuurs]

No, I can't say that. Our parent, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, may, but we do not specifically.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Pacetti, please.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming forward.

I'm one of the permanent members on the committee, and when we have seven or eight presenters, I think it is a challenge for us to even ask questions of everybody, never mind actually having the time to go through the briefs. So I will try to be brief.

I have a quick question for Mrs. Clayton. In your brief you state that you'd like to redirect some of the resources from one program to another in terms of tax credits. You didn't say “add”; you said “redirect”. What would you eliminate to provide for more credits? You weren't very specific. It was your first recommendation, I believe.

[Shelley Clayton]

Yes, in reference to redirection, perhaps it's a reduction. Perhaps it is a total redirection of a tax credit program that exists right now that is only benefiting a certain segment of the population. We are looking at the possibility of a global repositioning of all the tax--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but what we're looking for is for you to tell us what you think is not working, because you are the person on the ground. Saying “perhaps”--I don't mean to be critical--doesn't work for us. You have to be specific.

[Shelley Clayton]

Okay, then I'll be specific.

Registered education savings plans disproportionately--it is a well-known statement--go to the higher-income population, so redirect those resources to students who would not go as opposed to the students who already.... Statistically, it has been proven over a vast number of years that the higher the economic stratosphere, the more likely a student will attend. So putting RESPs for those already likely to attend is not really benefiting the whole Canadian population, just that one segment of the population.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That's what I'm looking for, and if you have anything in addition, just send it through the clerk's office. That's great. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

Along the same lines, Mr. Walker or Mr. Plante, in the middle part of your presentation you were saying to try to convert into money some of the credits that are out there and are not being utilized. Then in the end you said the SR and EDs are very cumbersome and very hard to actually realize. That is sort of contradictory, because if we're going to make these tax credits cashable or turn them into cash, are you going to want the government to do that? Do you want the government to re-evaluate and turn those credits into money? We have to find a system where your members can actually go to the bank and get financing for these credits, and we have to find a simpler way to do that. I'm not seeing a proposition for how we can do that.

There was a system in place in Quebec a couple of years ago where corporations were able to get back some money. They were able to convert their losses and get back their tax on capital, but that didn't work out because it was all so cumbersome and there was a little bit of playing around. That is one idea, but I'm not sure how we could do it so we could get the money flowing with less bureaucracy.

[Allison Walker]

We're suggesting, with respect to the cashing in of credits, that existing approved credits, whether those are generated from the SR and ED program or--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But SR and ED program credits are already reimbursed to both small and medium-sized enterprises.

[Allison Walker]

Yes, but the issue is that there's such a small threshold, they're really of very little benefit to anyone who's building a multi-million dollar plant or trying to upgrade a--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So you're saying increase the threshold for the SR and ED?